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Worried about Monty

Discussion in 'Herp Health' started by BlackJack, Oct 31, 2004.

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  1. Bitis Gabonica

    Bitis Gabonica Elite Member

    My guess, Andrea, is that Monty has had mites for a long time and is/was very heavily infested.. the bumps and wounds look like they may be damage from the mites, although mites weaken the immune system so he may be suffering from another illness or internal parasites as you suggested.

    I have forgotten - do you know if Monty was CF or CB or WC? My guess is CF - our little females were CF (which basically means that their mother was taken from the wild while pregnant, and the babies were sold in captivity - I do not generally agree with CF or WC, but our little ones were to be sold anyway that I wanted to give them a good home..),. one died :( and the other is doing really well now, but she did have mites, and with CF and WC there is a greater risk of external and internal parasites.

    Good luck at the vets on Monday and with the mite treatment. A vet is your best bet at this stage for poor Monty, and hopefully he/she can help to identify the lump/dent on Talyn. We are all here supporting you - think positive,. Monty and Talyn will be ok and the problem of mites will be long behind you sooner than you know it!

  2. BlackJack

    BlackJack Subscribed User Premium Member

    Thanks Rachel,
    The only reason why I think it might be something else is that the bumps continue to appear even though no more mites have been found for day... and believe me I've become an EXPERT mite-spotter! :eek:

    I'm relieved that he ate, but I'm glad I made that vet appt! I hope this vet is good... she's the only one in my area that is experienced in snakes...

    I never thought I'd wish for Monday to roll around so soon!!!!!!!!

    PS --I'm 99% sure that he is captive-bred. The Swiss have such extreme regulations on imports... What exactly does CF stand for?
    I think the pet shop had mites... I also think his terrarium at the pet shop was too humid. I told them about his condition the other day and they said they sold all the others (Monty's brothers and sisters) and no one else has complained.... I told them that I would HIGHLY recommend that they check all their enclosures for mites, but they probably won't. :mad:
  3. Bitis Gabonica

    Bitis Gabonica Elite Member

    CF = captive farmed. They are CB in the sense that they are hatched or born in captivity but they are likely from a parent that was WC, and they are in much greater supply, and not treated in general as well as most CB would be. More risk of parasites also.

    That's a shame about the pet shop -many pet shops have mites, and it is common simply due to the amount of trade, customers coming in and out, etc, who may transport mites, but they should do something to treat and prevent further spreading of the mites. Well done for warning them anyway, here's hoping they might have some sense.
  4. BlackJack

    BlackJack Subscribed User Premium Member

    The news on predatory mites!

    Rachel: I just checked Monty's sales certificate... it says Swiss bred, so I assume that means his parents were captive. Who can ever be 100% sure though?
    They sure seemed defensive and resistant to the suggestion they check for mites in their store, though. I definitely wasn't asking for a refund or anything... just FYI, you know? Bummer for the reptiles there, if they don't check. That makes me mad! :mad:

    Here's the dope on the predatory mites... :( I don't think they're worth much.
    We had Monty and Talyn in quarantine for a few days, while we nuked Monty's terrarium with insecticide (permethrin) let it sit for a few days and then washed the whole thing out. When the predatory mites arrived, we put some terrarium soil in it, put in the predatory mites and let Talyn sleep in there. Since she didn't seem to have many mites and the terrarium was mite-free, we thought it would be a good test.
    The other mites were put into Talyn's terrarium where the biggest infestation seemed to be.
    The next two days I noticed the predatory mites crawling on Talyn and thought that was a good sign. But when I put her in the bath yesterday and today, snake mites were still coming off. When I crushed one, it was full of blood.
    That's it for that experiment!!! Talyn's in a plastic sweater box again and both terrariums are getting "nuked" tomorrow!
    The snakes will not be let back into them until I am 100% sure that both snakes and terrariums are mite-free. The Reptile Relief should arrive on Monday and I will use it on Talyn immediately.
    I'll ask the vet if it's OK to use on Monty, with his irritated skin.

    So, Hypoaspis miles seems to be a disappointment. It sounded so hopeful, but Martin now has both an adult snake mite and a predatory mite in a clear film container and the predatory mite is just ignoring the other completely!! Even walking over the top of it!!
    So, $25 and two days later, not much progress (if any) has been made. :mad:

    Dave68; according to my continued research, the dilution you have is at a level safe for reptiles... I personally am still not yet ready to use permethrin directly on my snakes and I am still concerned about resistance. However, I WILL nuke my empty terrariums with it!!!!!!!

    FYI.My husband found these articles on head lice resistance to permethrin:(I can't speak for snake mites, but it's possible that they, too, could become resistant):

    Permethrin resistance:
    Burgess IF; Head lice resistant to pyrethroid insecticides in Britain [letter] BMJ, 1995 Sep 16.
    Mumcuoglu KY, et al. Permethrin Resistance in the head louse Pediculus capitis from Israel. Med Vet Entomol. 1995 Oct.
    Rupe SV, et al. A Resistance of head lice (Pediculus capitis) to permethrin in Czech Republic. Cent Eur J Public Health, 1995 Feb.
    Robert P. et al. Resistance of lice to insecticides: a serious public health problem. Can J Public Health, 1995 Jan-Feb.
    Schachner LA; Treatment resistant head lice: alternative therapeutic approaches. Pediatr Dermatol, 1997 Sep-Oct.
    Estrada, B; Head Lice: What about Ivermectin? Infect Med 15 (12):823, 1998.
    Bell, TA; Treatment of Pediculis Humanus Var. Capitis Infestation in Cowlitz County, Washington, with Ivermectin and the LiceMeister® Comb. Pediatr Infect Dis J 17:923-924, 1998.
  5. BlackJack

    BlackJack Subscribed User Premium Member

    Monty's vet appointment

    I'm not sure this vet knows too much.

    When she asked me about the temps/humidity for Monty, I told her the Warm side 85-88F (30 C), Cool side 80ish F (26 C) Basking spot 90-92 F (32 C) and Humidity is between 50 and 65%
    She went out and got a binder, looked through it and said that my temps were on the high side and that the humidity should be 80-90% !!!!!!!!!!!!
    (That's even higher than for my BRB!!!) I told her that all of my research recommends a MAXIMUM humidity of 65% -- she said I was wrong.

    She's not sure what little Monty has: maybe a form of skin tuberculosis... but she said it might not be that. (Mycobacterium marinum) Do any of you know anything about this???

    She gave me some oral antibiotics that I should give him for the next 10 days and she gave little Monty fluids (at both ends) so hopefully I can get her a stool sample to send to the lab soon. I hope the lab has better information.
    I also had the impression that she didn't know much about reptile mites or how to treat them... never heard of giving a snake a betadine/water bath. The Reptile Relief should arrive today. (She never heard of that either!)

    At the moment, Monty is in the blue; getting ready for shedding. I really hope these antibiotics help his skin and that his shed goes OK.
  6. Dave68

    Dave68 Active Member

    Thanks for the heads up BlackJack, but i believe the resistance thing is caused by improper treatment ie... not killing all the bugs and stopping treatment too soon. If all the bugs are killed then there aren't any left to build resistance. Thorough treatment being the key! So sorry to hear about Monties new problem, have you seen any ticks? Ticks will get right under the scales and can cause abcesses like you described, very irritating to the snake as well. Ticks are very commonly found on imported ball pythons and even if yours was captive bred if it was kept in a cage that once housed imports, then there is a good chance that Monty might have them as well. They are generally easier to see than mites because they are bigger, but if they died while under the scales they wouldn't be so easily found and can cause infection. Again sorry to bring you down more , but there is always a light at the end of the tunnel no matter how dark it seems! Just keep your head up, and a smile on!
    Good luck!

  7. Dave68

    Dave68 Active Member

    One more thing, stay clear of that vet, sounds like most non herp vets,useless!!

  8. BlackJack

    BlackJack Subscribed User Premium Member

    Some good news!

    Monty just shed in mostly one good piece... the head and tip of the tail came off separately but the rest was nicely intact and all rolled up. I carefully spread it out in a container of water and checked it for mites and other beasts... nothing. :) But all of the rusty-colored and nasty scales came off. Her new skin looks MUCH MUCH better! The bumps are still there but much much smaller or just scabbed left-overs. All of his belly scales look perfect!!
    I haven't seen a mite on him for several days (also none in his plastic "temporary homes" or in the water bowls.) So, hopefully, the cause is gone and the bumps will slowly go away.
    I'm still going to give him the antibiotic drops for good measure... but hopefully he's on his way to better health.

    Thanks Dave
    Believe it or not, my local zoo recommended that vet as "the reptile specialist veterinarian in this area" !?!?! I seem to have all the luck! :rolleyes:

    As far as killing all the mites... I've been cleaning, spraying, vacuuming, spraying, cleaning, etc. for weeks...I think we're going to keep the snakes quarantined for a while longer with daily baths box changes-- I've read that a protonymph can live up to 14 days without a blood meal, but an adult can live up to 35 days... so I can't relax too soon....Especially when it comes to the terrarium furniture!
    I know that normal cold temps won't kill the mites, but I don't want any of that stuff inside the house until it's been "nuked" several times with permethrin.
    When there's more space in the freezer, I might put the two hideboxes in there. The eggs will die if frozen at -20C for over a week. My freezer is always at least that cold.
  9. BlackJack

    BlackJack Subscribed User Premium Member

    Update on Monty

    The vet just called about Monty's stool sample: apparently he has some type of tapeworm! The poor little guy!
    I've got to take him back to her on Monday. As questionable as she is, apparently she's the local expert on reptiles! Hopefully she knows how to treat snake tapeworms!!
    I'm going to have Talyn's stool tested as soon as she leaves me something...
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