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The Sorry History of Not Feeding Rodents to Savannah Monitor Lizards

Discussion in 'Monitors' started by BoDiddleyitis, Mar 9, 2012.

  1. kriminaal

    kriminaal HH Block Leader Staff Member Premium Member

    Furthermore.
    The staff here at HC will deal with anyone who repeatedly uses illegible posting.
    Members do not need to confront each other in the open forum on this matter.
    We will deal with the issues when it arrives, in private.
     
  2. gbassett

    gbassett Elite Member

    I'm going to add my two cents.I keep Dumeriliis monitors,another specialized feeder.Now I do offer rodents very rarely.I try to stick with fish,shrimp, and crabs. Now when I do offer rodents on a more regular basis they tend to be less energetic and spend more time under or around the basking site. There colors dull out and there over all health dose not seem right.

    I personally think you should look into what they eat in there natural habitat,and try to mimic it the best we can.

    Daniel,please stick around your work is always thrown around and taken out of context and it is nice to have you here to put it in prospective.I know how you feel as a member of a few sites,there are times I want to bash my head against the wall.So I do hope you come back as this topic is a very important one that I everyone could benefit from.


    Greg
     
  3. bradyloach

    bradyloach Elite Member

    Just everyone should just love :) What people do with there lizards should be left untouched unless you address the matter nicely. We all need to respect each other cause were a family on HC :)
     
  4. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    I`d like to add this to what you`ve said Mike; it`s been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that unless the animal is properly supported, they will continue to die in their thousands in a short space of time WHATEVER they are fed...
    This is NOT the wild, we have the opportunity to make it BETTER in all but space offered.

    Hi BarelyBreathing,
    you continue to "brush aside" anyone who dares to disagree with you, seemingly in an effort to promote a very unreliable website in at least some respects; savannahmonitor.org, who`s opinions on captive diet have done a "u-turn" since the unfortunate and untimely death of one single individual`s animal/s; MDFMONTOR, who was used as "model" for captive husbandry, in particular feeding...
    Nobody knows who the (scientists?) are (including you yourself), apart from Daniel Bennett and Cisse, and the former clearly does NOT agree with your views.
     
  5. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member


    Hi Daniel, it`s been an absolute pleasure to have you visit and take part in the discussions, and it`s pretty obvious most of members feel the same, and for the MAJORITY of us, you`ve clarified the issues of captive diet.
    It does get ridiculous at times, I often feel like giving it up as a bad job, but we cannot stop trying to end the slaughter, it really isn`t that hard to provide conditions for them to thrive in captivity (even when rodents are part of the diet). ;)
    Don`t stop posting, we ALL lose in that case, most of all the monitors....

    Hi bradyloach, it`s all about CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, and most of all, TESTING theories, until that`s done, nothing`s "proven":
    A diet of inverts only, a diet of vertebrates (including rodents), a diet of rodents exclusively, and a variety of all those prey items....
    And in my opinion, YES, you should be offering your monitor vertebrate prey (including some rodents); perhaps 2 or 3 fuzzie mice, or a couple of rat pups per week, together with the inverts, and making sure the conditions suppport the animal AT ALL TIMES, because if not, the monitor will die in a relatively short space of time....
     
  6. kriminaal

    kriminaal HH Block Leader Staff Member Premium Member

    It's been a bit of a circus on the monitor forum the last month or so. However I strongly believe we have made some headway in learning about exanthematicus.
    We all know us monitor owners have thick skulls. But in the end we all really want to help prevent the demise of Savannah monitors on such a grand scale in captivity.
     
  7. bradyloach

    bradyloach Elite Member

    I don't know, I don't want to feed my sav mice, a personally decision, im following a couple of good keepers, i hate mice and don't want to even use them
     
  8. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Hi BarelyBreathing, how old is the oldest of the monitors that you`ve personally raised from a hatchling to an adult, and can you give details of species and diet throughout life? Thanks!

    You`re quite entitled to do whatever you think`s best for your monitor! Can we all know who the "good keepers" are, who`s advise you`ve decided to follow?
     
  9. BoDiddleyitis

    BoDiddleyitis Well-Known Member

    Inverts and rodents. We tried to cover it in our book. If he had done it on a diet without rodents we would have said so, if we had known of any documented cases of monitor lizards succeeding in captivity on a diet without rodents, we would probably have mentioned it. Under good conditions with a diet of inverts and rodents they do very well. In fact that is the only way people have bred them consistently so far. There are internet rumours to the contrary and of course it must be possible because savannah monitors in the wild don't seem to feed on rodents in most places, but in the absence of documented evidence, and considering the fact that virtually every example of successful monitor husbandry involves rodents to some extent, I think the advice we provided was sound. Inverts and the odd rodent I think we said.

    The problem with savannah monitor books and magazine articles up to then was that they had no basis in fact. They were written by people who could maybe keep the lizards alive for a few years, but had never bred them and knew nothing at all about the natural history of savannah monitors. The information they provided was awful and they were fueling the demand for savannah monitors. So I went to Africa and tried to learn about them, Ravi bred them, and we presented a book in which the information provided was backed up with solid evidence. As Crocdoc says, dogma is best avoided. But when you have a couple of small pages to write advice about feeding the lizards you have to be dogmatic to some extent. Avoid processed food, raise feeder animals under the highest standards and use a diet that is proven to work.

    For people to post here saying that rodents shouldn't be fed to savannah monitors because they don't eat them in the wild, but it's ok to feed them crabs and shrimps is nonsensical. To go on to say that 3 or 4 generations of savannah monitors have been bred in captivity without any rodents in the diet, but to provide no proof at all and say it is all a big secret is quite extraordinary. To cite authors whose work does not appear in any database, nor even anywhere on the internet, starts getting into the realms of the Twilight Zone. We tried hard to provide information that was backed up with evidence. If you can't do the same you should really keep quiet.
     
  10. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    BarelyBreathing represents savannahmonitor.org, for her (or them) to agree to offering some rodents in the captive diet would mean admitting they got it wrong (another "about turn"). I doubt that will happen unfortunately, because this all all about "saving face", not about offering evidence to support their ridiculous claims. (Your gramaar isn`t that "porely", Daniel). ;)
     
  11. bradyloach

    bradyloach Elite Member

    Hmm I don't want to feed rodents cause well first off my mom would flip if I brought rodents in! Haha maybe frozen ones one say but right now I see my sav having energy and theres nothing wrong, what would adding rodents in the diet do? So far I feed her crickets nightcrawlers and the occasional roach, I don't have a good blend right now cause I can't find anywere that sells shrimp or other foods! My sav would only eat pinkies right? And what's the benefit of feeding her these?
     
  12. Vers

    Vers Elite Member

    To state that the monitor boards have been 'a bit' of a circus lately would be an understatement :D While I have found some of the discussion rather interesting, the majority of it was borderline mind numbing...and now, well, it's turned into a bit of a witch hunt over something that was clearly lost in translation and perhaps taken a bit out of context. Perhaps it's time to put the egos aside?
     
  13. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    You need to offer a nutritious, calcium rich diet to any growing varanid, and that describes fuzzie mice/rat pups (and other vertebrates), and yes, you buy them frozen, no need to feed live. Pinky mice are less nutritious because there`s little protein, and the skeleton isn`t formed.
    If you believe the scientist that did some of the most thorough studies to date, and his co author who`s kept and bred this species are wrong about offering any rodents, don`t do it.... Personally, I agree with them both and the other very succesful varanid breeders.
    By the way, I think you wanted to try breeding snails? Many species seem to enjoy them, but I can tell you it takes between one and two YEARS for them to mature!
    In my experience, monitors most often break the shell and swallow the contents, so there isn`t that much calcium being taken (but you can still offer them), you can also offer the freshwater type that aquarist`s sell.
     
  14. bradyloach

    bradyloach Elite Member

    My girlfriends wildlife profersser in her 3rd year of her undergrad said that savsnnah monitors gi tract isn't good for handling bones and fur at a young age.
     
  15. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    O.k, how many years has your GF been studying varanids, and can she/you show the evidence Savannah monitors cannot metabolise bones or fur "at a young age" (how old before they can)?
     
  16. bradyloach

    bradyloach Elite Member

    She Hasent! I'm just saying that's what her prof told us, I'm just curious to see if I could feed my sav rodemts
     
  17. BoDiddleyitis

    BoDiddleyitis Well-Known Member

    No animal can metabolise fur. It is undigestible. I think she must have misunderstood him.
     
  18. Infernalis

    Infernalis Elite Member

    Brady, you have been told it's OK several times. Just not as a primary food source.

    Get some frozen hopper mice, thaw one out and offer it on tongs, your sav should suck it right down.
     
  19. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Hi Vers, I think it`s an insult to say it all about ego`s? For me, it`s about offering reliable advise that can help the keeper/s help their animals, in a quite DESPERATE situation that seems to be getting worse. Yes, it gets heated at times, but that`s what debating is all about....
    You should have been around a couple of years ago when I showed a video of my "tame" Ornate monitor, and then suggested UVB might be benficial to captive varanids. World war 3 broke out!! ;)

    The undigested parts like claws, fur (or feathers), all come out in the faeces...

    Bradyloach, have you tried offering fertilised quail eggs?
     
  20. Infernalis

    Infernalis Elite Member

    when I gave Chomper small chicks (yes I know I never mentioned it before) I used scissors to cut off the beaks and feet.
     

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