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the cedar and pine

Discussion in 'Product Questions' started by Rakoladycz, Mar 24, 2005.

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  1. Rakoladycz

    Rakoladycz Elite Member

    I know that you arent supposed to use cedar and pine with your herps but i was curious as to why this is? I remember reading something about it being the fumes but they are only harmful if the wood gets wet. Another thing i read was it is the powder that is on the chips but that is all it was left too.

    Any info would be much appreciated!

    ... and sorry for only being a lurker lately, i dont want to be a post ***** with all the ooohs and aaahs and i really dont offer that much info, but i appreciate everyone elses help.
  2. smallgrayfox

    smallgrayfox Contributing Member

    It's the aromatic oils that are dangerous...and correct me if I'm wrong, someone, but I don't think it's only dangerous when wet. I thought it was dangerous all the time. I've avoided cedar and pine like the plague for any of my animals for years and years...
  3. Rakoladycz

    Rakoladycz Elite Member

    Gotcha... if that is the case how come none of the animal protection agencies have gotten involved to discontinue the selling of these products for the use as animal substrate.
  4. smallgrayfox

    smallgrayfox Contributing Member

    I have no idea why they haven't gotten involved as these substrates are known to cause respiratory problems in animals...I wish they would put a stop to it!
  5. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Juliane you are correct it is the aromatic oils and resin in the wood that is the problem. Whether or not the wood is wet has nothing to do with it.
    The same reason that they still sell hot rocks, calcium sand and allow the packaging of regular incandescent light bulbs to mislead you into thinking they are something they are not. Reptiles are not a big concern for these groups, their focus is on the warm fuzzies.
  6. Rakoladycz

    Rakoladycz Elite Member

    I know alot of people who use ceder and pine for rabbits, gerbil, and many many other small mammals

    And the Calcium sand i dont know if they should pull off the market, just get rid of the misleading labels. but thats not the arguement/question so i will leave it alone
  7. furryscaly

    furryscaly Elite Member

    Yup. Aromatic oils and hydrocarbons called phenols. They're what give cedar, pine, and the like their familiar scent. If it smells like pine, its dangerous. Even if it doesn't, that doesn't mean its safe. Long ago I kept mt rodents on pine cause that's what pet stores use. Ever since I switched to aspen my rodents are free of respiratory ailments and live twice as long.
  8. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    For years cedar was the recommended bedding for rodents because it covered up the smell. I still see it used.
  9. smallgrayfox

    smallgrayfox Contributing Member

    I see it sometimes too, and it makes me mad :mad: , but on the bright side, almost all of the pet stores here have gone to aspen bedding, thank goodness. :)
  10. Jaded

    Jaded Member

    Ceder and chloropine and horrible for small animals too. The only thing that you could really use ceder for are dogs and bigger. But other then that its not good at all.

    I'm curious as to why you guys don't like the calci sand? I imagine impaction would be the main reason, but as far as I know it'll digest before becoming a problem. I've only seen one impaction, my ball python that had been kept on that crushed walnut crap with the uromastix on the packaging. At the pet store I work at all the desert herps are on it and I've never seen any of em get impacted. And these are usually jueviniles.

    You guys ever think of putting together a comprehensive pros and cons of common products page together?
  11. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    There are two types of impaction. One is where something large is swallowed and causes an immediate blockage, the other, and this is the case with sand, is where the stuff builds up over time gradually causing a blockage as it accumulates.
    Calci sand, contrary to what the package says, does not completely digest. And the stores use it because they are trying to sell it.
  12. Jaded

    Jaded Member

    Well if the calci sand doesn't work, What would you put a desert animal on?
  13. Hide Clyde

    Hide Clyde Elite Member

    It would depend on what animal you were talking about. Lots of people believe that Bearded Dragon should live on sand since they are a desert dweller but the ground there is really hard packed dirt and rock. Not sand! Because the animal can't get away from it anything that poses a risk is greater since it has no choice. My dragon lives on tile.
  14. Moshpitrockchick

    Moshpitrockchick Subscribed User Premium Member

    Tile, carpet, slate rocks, shelf liner, pretty much anything that can't be eaten either accidentally or intentionally.
  15. Jaded

    Jaded Member

    Well then what would you do for a burrowing reptile? They live on all kinds of substrates in the wild, so whats so different about buying it from a pet store?

    I understand your guy's concern, but I kind of think its like making your kid wear a helmet all the time.
  16. Colleen

    Colleen Elite Member

    As a rabbit breeder for over 15 years, I never used cedar. Now that I think about it I didn't use Cedar when I was raising mice either. Like everyone else said it was because of the fumes that could result in respiratory problems. It wasn't recommended by the rabbit breeder associations either. I would use pine in next boxes as an absorbent.
  17. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Because no where in the wild is there such a thing as calci sand. Its a man made product.
    There are some herps that should be housed with soil or sand and they are adapted to dealing with it. But who's to say that even these animals don't occassionally suffer from impaction even in the wild. The problem, as Hide Clyde stated, is that when most people think "desert reptile" immediately loose sand dunes come to mind. Very few animals actually live on such a surface. If you think about it, on loose sand, you will find no cover unless it is a burrowing animal that can dive beneath the sand. This means that they would spend their entire lives exposed.
    Most "desert" reptiles live on rocky outcrops and hardpacked soil.
    Yes and just like a parent, as a keeper, you have taken on the the responsibilty to provide the safest possible environment for your pet. This animal's life and safety are in your hands.
  18. Mark

    Mark Elite Member

    To take a step back to the topic of pine. There is a plethora of evidence that using pine for the cage of a reptile is safe. Think about all the cages which are really just pine / spruce / epoxy boxes. Plywood and standard construction lumber (2x and 1x stock) is usually pine and spruce or a combination of the two you have to pay a premium not to have common conifers. How can you write off pine as toxic in light of this which I am sure you knew just had slipped the mind?
  19. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    As a construction material pine and even cedar can be safely used. You are going to seal it anyway.
    The problem lies with the shavings which due to having a large surface area causes them to emit a great deal of fumes from the natural resins.
  20. joeking

    joeking Elite Member

    yeah he's right why don't you ask a scientist I'm sure they could prove it. And just like the kid who wont wear the helmet is it that hard not to buy cedar? This is beginning to remind me of the conversations my bfs brother has who is a doctor. So many pregnant people tell the doctors that they're feeding their babies sugar and carnation milk as formula and after the doctor says cream and sugar is not a good formula everyones answer is the same "But it never hurt me" meanwhile the person is obeese has heart problems and has a kid with another kid with ADD...Why bother risking it?
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