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Tame Vs Non Tame...

Discussion in 'Monitors' started by SaVBigBossOwner, Mar 16, 2012.

  1. SaVBigBossOwner

    SaVBigBossOwner Well-Known Member

    Okay so today my friend and i were having a discussion on whether or not tame savs are indeed more indanger by the owners who treat them as pets tame them and spoil them vs ppl who respect them from a distance basicaly as a viewing animal with little interaction other than feeding and occsional encounters (only around when truly needed) this came about after his hours of countless viewing of tamed savs on youtube i personally dont try to tame my minitor i did want to at first as i was nieve and young minded but as i came to do so much research online in books here in this forum i found more and more that perhaps taming a sav isnt exactly healthy for owner or sav. Ppl who become attached to their savs im totally at fault for this as well in the past we get used to the idea if them becoming "puppy dogg tame" where they just lay and hang out there by the owner but i ask is this behavior a good sighn or "tame" as we like to call it i have say no i personally i feed my sav in her enclosure and other then a couple of pats here and there and bathing plus feeding big boss is all boss of her enclosure and she knows it she still will love to get a good grasp on my fingers if she could she is very active but displays territorial displays i looked at all the "tame" savs and they either seem lethargic or over weight i dont believe a monitor should be lethargic or "tame" it just wouldnt be a monitor to me its not like an iguana ir a beardie dont get me wrong i love all reptiles iguanas and beardies haha but lets be frank monitors are the kings of the lizard world regardless what species so i dont feel they should ever be tamed now my friend are arguing back and forth and i just thought id post it on the forum to see what you guys thought...

    "All this time i've been in a rush for her to grow, when it was i who needed to grow"
     
  2. Infernalis

    Infernalis Elite Member

    it's all about moderation.

    Keeping your lizard "in the box" leaves very little for it to do, unless you have a room size enclosure.

    Granted, taking it out all day long is not good either. (like the people on youtube)

    In the wild monitors can cover over a mile of wandering around in a day, can your box provide this?

    I prefer the word tractable over tame. Tame would indicate that you could call your monitor by name and it would come to you.

    It is widely believed that with their intelligence levels that monitors can become bored.

    Just a few things to think about.
     
  3. SaVBigBossOwner

    SaVBigBossOwner Well-Known Member

    Understood about the distance they travel and i believe like you stated unless you have
    a room sized enclosure or something larger then maybe youll never truly get to see a monitor at its truest form but even then that would be to small believe me Wayne if i lived in a warm climate area where i could turn my backyard into a savanah paradise i would hands down unfortunately i dont and even worst i live on the east coast where our winters are extremely cold but i maintain all her temps and humidity fine. Now as far as calling a monitor to come to you Wayne i believe is possible, however i dont think its natural for us to have a wild animal that should do this. Im not saying to inprison your animal obviously like you said unless you give them miles they'll never really travel their true distances or display all natural behaviors but heres where i get "creative" Wayne, i believe monitors are extremely intellegent and **** i dont have to believe it the research and proofs there hahaha i believe if you add obstacles not courses but new items hide foods make them explore change things ariund in their enclosure it mixes things up and gets them thinking guessing and moving alot more. Now that doesnt mean shove your sav in watever sized enclosure and thinking changing a water dish or a log is going to do anything. Of course priority one is houseboundery and temps/humidity, but actually letting them search for their meals creating new borrows or areas out of old ones that may look diffrent or be setup a diffrent way basically keep them guessing i think that the topic of how big monitors enclosures should actually be would be as back and forth as the invert and whole prey item thing "wheels on the bus" haha but obviously we know the bare minimum for their enclosure size but even if someone built a paradise in their back yard like you said they need miles so it would never be enough. Now my sav isnt a savage lol she is handled like i said i bathe her and pat her at times and i do take her out to walk around, but my views on"tame" have drastically changed. Big boss and i have alot of growing to do together and although i may not be able to pick her up give her a kiss we have a mutual respect and understanding between eachother and thats all i could ask for i appreciate the value of that more of a you respect my space and ill allow you to enter mine. Maybe i worded something wrong or was misunderstood i know we as humans can only do our very best to replicate what mother nature has provided these creatures with since before our time but Wayne i feel even with the biggest enclosure and most knowledge on landscape and diet its all written by man who is just that man who make mistakes interpret behaviors as "tame" when in fact it could be harmful or a sighn of stress that because we as humans have such a natural lust to control things we cant, we determine these behaviors as normal. Now dont get me wrong im not saying im an expert or that the people who studied these animals are extremely unworthy of their tesearch of course where would we be had bennet and others like him hadn't taken the time out to observe these beautiful creatures but even then some off their recordings were off research was done at a time when there was less deforestation going on and who lnows what other factors could have played a role. What im saying is Wayne you 100% right we could never ever give a sav what they completly need in captivity only hope to do as beat we can to replicate it. Heres my reason why i say the "tame" behavior maybe not as great as we thought. I read and im going to search for this article to post by a professor who studied these animals both in africa and in universites. When you go to pet your sav and it bows its head and closes its eyes and we pat them and say O look at this lovely sighn of affection. When in fact in the wild savs who feel overwhelmed or stressed and will not defend themselves in anyway, this is a sighn of them giving up and waiting for wat they think could be an attack they cant prevent now ask youself i know theae animals are becoming extremly popular in the pet trade being sold as little as $35 online and now are being captive bred, but surely as a wise man said in one of my favoritest films you simply cant surpress millions of years of natural instinct. Not saying savs have been around that long but you get my point. A sav should be tolerent of your presence Wayne like you state with no argument from me, but should also be very weary allowing you only to venture to the point where you have established a feeding ground or grabbing point for bathes or when needing to clean the enclosure other than that I feel your sav should be some what deffensive about their personal space not mauling you, but letting you know hey i see you i know you feef and bathe me but this is my enclosure and will display his or her dominance.
     
  4. Infernalis

    Infernalis Elite Member

    Even though that sea of words was difficult to read. (sorry being honest) I wholeheartedly agree with everything you just said.

    One of the toughest obstacles I have to overcome at my house, is the wife and daughter view our Savs as "pets" where I view them as captive lizards.

    All I meant by "tractable" is that I can take them outside on a nice day and aside from following them around and keeping an eye on things, They won't lash and bite me when it's time to come back in the house.
     
  5. SaVBigBossOwner

    SaVBigBossOwner Well-Known Member

    Yeah sorry about all of that i get so caught up in these topics but thanks for your input Wayne as always a helping hand on these sav topics
     
  6. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Hi, I`d just like to ask what`s so great about having a semi wild animal in a tiny box, stressed by the giant predator on the other side of the glass for years at a time (not that it happens too often that they live very long)...
    Yes, monitors can become tractable, and get to know their keeper, it takes a lot of time and patience, and no guarantees.
    Unless you`ve done it you really don`t know, nor will you ever unless you at least try. And what`s the difference between a Bearded dragon and a varanid as far as becoming tractable, monitors are far more responsive and intelligent!
    The "tame" issue`s been done to death too!
     
  7. SaVBigBossOwner

    SaVBigBossOwner Well-Known Member

    So what exactly is your point here? Tiny box huge predator dont exactly keep mine in a tiny box but i could assure you it wouldnt last long in one and in terms of how long they last thats on how well the owner managers to take care of their reptile. I dont think having a tame savs going to give it a longer life span by any means i mean like i said there must be some bonding interaction. Examples feeding, bathing, cleaning enclosure and an occasional pat here ir there, but to sit and try to tame it to just lay around Or to show ppl hey look i have a wild animal whom ive spoiled so much that i can now take it out and view as a former shadow of itself, is in my eyes not what these animals are meant for and if so, i feel they'd be considered begginer lizards much like iguanas or beardies which they clearly arn't.
     
  8. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    My point? If you think stickig a wild animal in a tiny box of dirt and only ever feeding, watering etc, is somehow an achievement, you`re not asking much. If the animal is less stressed, it`s surely healthier?
    And since when have Iguana`s been "beginner" lizards? There`s NOTHING natural about captivity.
    Can I ask how long you`ve had your monitor, and how large is your enclosure compared to the wild areas they use? ;)
     
  9. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    And to be honest anyone who thinks of an iguana as a "beginners lizard" is in for a very rude awakening!
     
  10. Infernalis

    Infernalis Elite Member

    I was going to say just this myself, but I held off.

    Iguanas are trickier than some monitors to keep healthy.
     
  11. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    I only had my Iguana for around a year, but I think they are much more difficult in some ways than any monitor I`ve ever owned, particularly at certain times of the year. Unfortunately they were, and still are often bought as a first lizard, just like many monitors, a BIG mistake..
     
  12. gbassett

    gbassett Elite Member

    An 8 foot box for a 4 foot lizard is tiny.

    Greg
     
  13. BTKinabo

    BTKinabo Member

    I have a juvenille Black Throat that will come to my hand when I place it in his enclosure. He often lays his head in my hand as well.
    He is well fed and has a basking area right at 135-140f. I think he likes the interaction and he gets quite a bit of "out time" as well.
    He has also crawled up onto my lap and slept...his idea not mine. I truly think he likes the interaction. He still hisses and tail whips when whatever I am doing ****es him off but the tail whips have become slower and less frequent.
    I was told on a couple other forums that his tameness would end when the higher temps were employed. He is a little more feisty but basically just as tame. He has grown 5 inches in a month.

    Will he come when called, no and don't think he ever will. He doesn't love me. I think with some monitors and Tegus, they bond with their owners given that the bonding process is done in their time and their pace. A big part of what appears to be affection is the safety they feel in your company. They associated you with warmth, food and those wonderful scratches when they are shedding and you are helping. Is that "tame"? No, but it is rewarding and I am constantly amazed by how they honor me with their closeness and tolerance. At times both my monitor and especially my Tegu actually seem to crave attention.
     
  14. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Hi, I like your reply, I prefer the word "tractable" to tame these days, but yes, in many cases with lots of time and patience they are very responsive animals, which is not surprising when we consider how intelligent they are, and they WILL respond to the sound of their name without any doubt whatsoever, but no, they won`t fetch sticks! ;)
     
  15. Infernalis

    Infernalis Elite Member

    Chomper knew his name... But it usually meant food or going outside.
     
  16. BTKinabo

    BTKinabo Member

    Thank you. It is a very welcome thing to hear that I did something right.
     

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