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Line breeding (aka inbreeding)

Discussion in 'General' started by kremlinator, Jun 11, 2007.

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Do you practise line breeding (aka. inbreeding)?

  1. Yes. Inbreeding only hurts people in my opinion

    5.0%
  2. Sometimes if I need some extra cash from a clutch

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Never! I realize the genetic pool of captive herps is restricted enough as is

    45.0%
  4. I don't breed animals.

    50.0%
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  1. kremlinator

    kremlinator Banned User

    Do you inbreed your reptiles to make their kids look prettier?

    I'm a definate NO. I go out of my way to avoid breeders who do this and I breed different looking ones to make my babies healthier in the long run.
     
  2. titus

    titus Elite Member Premium Member

    I voted yes for this poll, their are few good grounds for Linebreeding an without such practice many morphs of snakes and other reptiles would not have been possible. Mice have been line breed for up to 30 generations. Reptiles with the proper care can be and have for just as many. One I only line breed for line trait morphs (ie. Bloodred, Okeetee, ext.) and only till the F4 generation before outcrossing to a unrealted snake (perferibly WC). When done properly the reptiles show no problems.
     
  3. Rich

    Rich Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Line breeding, or selective breeding, doesn't mean you have to inbreed.

    You can introduce a new bloodline that has the same traits you are breeding for. If you were breeding corns or leopard geckos for a specific trait, you can easily keep that trait clean and thriving by holding back your best looking offspring, and then purchasing another breeder from someone else that has the traits or charecteristics you are breeding for. If you keep your breeding groups separated, you can then take the offspring from those breedings and breed them against the offspring from the other groups.

    This method of line breeding will allow you to keep the trait clean, but also to keep the trait strong and improving.

    I chose no as I don't inbreed.
     
  4. venus

    venus Founding Member

    Yea what Rich said, lol.

    I also dont inbreed.
     
  5. nicole

    nicole Elite Member

    that was an easy one for me, lol. I dont breed.
     
  6. titus

    titus Elite Member Premium Member


    Point well taken, and works well on esablished lines but to introduce a new trait to a line a limited amount of line breeding is needed.

    When first breeding opel stripe corns for example.

    P1 lavander X amel. stripe
    F1 Normal het. Lav, amel, stripe. X normal het. Lav, amel stripe
    F2 Opel stripe

    At this point I'd outcross to two unrelated animals

    P2 Opel stripe X normal
    F1 normal het. opel stripe

    P3 Opel stripe X normal
    F1 normal het. opel stripe

    these half siblings would then produce fully heathy stock in the F1 Generation. Time consuming but safe and with minimal line breeding to introduce a new trait. Like it or not it's a needed evil if Designer traits are wanted.
     
  7. kremlinator

    kremlinator Banned User

    Rich for the win!!! Anyways, some people use line breeding as a junior synonym for inbreeding to make them sound less monstrous to people like me (sorry titus, lol). I think Dog breeders do that mostly but I wanted to cover the bases.
     
  8. Typhanie

    Typhanie Elite Member

    I don't breed anything right now, but if I did ever get into it, I don't think I would inbreed the animals. I know it takes a few generations to start getting deformations in inbred reptiles, but I'd probably only trust that if I thouroughly knew the parents' backgrounds. Even then I'd still have objections to it, but they'd be moral/ethical objections, rather than whether or not the offspring would be born deformed.

    I wouldn't have a problem, however, breeding for specific traits.
     
  9. MoogleBass

    MoogleBass Kittes are so nice! Premium Member

    Ill do it. I was going to this year but didnt. Yes the animals can get effected from it. Thats how the spider ball pythons have a head wobble thing. Finding a pure animal now is next to impossible...They do it in the wild too. They know no diffrent really. I know dog breeders but theyve never breed back to the parents..Atleast we never did. Saw some messed up puppies from that mostly from mills.
     
  10. kremlinator

    kremlinator Banned User

    "Like it or not it's a needed evil if Designer traits are wanted"

    -I concur. However, I avoid some of them if I can and when I breed I try to breed the inbreeding out of them. Why do we NEED designer morphs anyways? I don't understand the allure of animals that look like art.

    Breeding for specific traits is not bad at all if done responsibly. It just takes longer when you don't inbreed.

    Yes, inbreeding in nature does happen in most species, but it's limited generally due to the fact that there is large populations and the odds are against ever mating with a close relative.
     
  11. MoogleBass

    MoogleBass Kittes are so nice! Premium Member

    That is the main reason alot have a "display piece" with a natural vivi and a outstanding animal.
     
  12. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Indeed! And like it or not the advent of the designer morphs is what has really fueled the upsurge in herp keeping and brought it into the mainstream. While this has resulted in a lot of peope getting into herp keeping as an impulse because they like the fancy colors it has also resulted in the proliferation of products that make the basic herper's attempts to keep and breed these animals much simpler.
    And I do not breed.
    At least at this point.
     
  13. KrokadilyanGuy3

    KrokadilyanGuy3 Elite Member

    I do not care for 99 percent of morphs of any species or subspecies, so I do not care. Eventually it'll probably end up like any pure breed, rodents and others "lined" animals. But whatever, it's all about money anyway.

    I do not "Line" breed.
     
  14. kremlinator

    kremlinator Banned User

    well played Zane.
     
  15. Palaeomike

    Palaeomike Elite Member

    **** no! When I start breeding there will be no inbreeding. It's too bad there isn't a larger genetic pool in the commercial reptile breeding industry. Inbreeding creates a greater probability of some genetic mutations or problems to arise within your reptiles. I do agree that inbreeding can create spectacular colours (or "morphs"), but I certainly don't agree with it for the potential health problems that can arise.
     
  16. Dogboa

    Dogboa Elite Member

    Rich,
    I honestly think you are mentioning two different breeding principles, which are not the same. Linebreeding is exactly that, breeding within the same bloodline. Selective breeding is animals of different bloodlines that have similar traits. As someone mentioned, they will carry linebreeding to the F4 generation and then outcross. My problem with this is that if those F4s are sold to someone else, how many generations will they continue the linebreeding or how many generations will their buyer carry forth?

    The ball python market, in the past few years, has begun to show the results of too much linebreeding. Spiderballs for example. The shocking thing is that the problems they have are just shrugged off as a non-issue, when it is evident to anyone willing to take off the blinders, that it is a genetic issue.

    I have not and never will breed related emeralds. Nor will I sell "pairs" from the same litter or related litters.

    I can't vote on the poll, because the only answer I would choose does't really reflect my thoughts. I would vote, "never", but back that up with some species do not have a restricted gene pool, therefore linebreeding should not be chosen as an option. It may be true that so many generations will have no ill effects, but how do you stop someone that purchases at the point and continues on?

    Craig
     
  17. Rich

    Rich Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Hello,

    You are right Craig. I understand that some people intentionally inbreed (linebreed) and then others selective breed.

    I still stand by my initial response though in how to keep the trait thriving without inbreeding.

    Most linebreeding is done for specific traits to be carried on. Primarily the coloration or pattern that the parents may have. This can be accomplished without compromising the health of the animal if they were selective breeding.

    I am not up to par of how many generations can be inbred before issues arise, but that's because it isn't information I require. I don't see why anyone would intentionally inbreed when they could easily do as I stated and have several different breeding groups going and then cross the offspring to the other offspring. From there on out, its just a matter of introducing a single new blood line each year. (At least by how I am calculating it. lol)
     
  18. kremlinator

    kremlinator Banned User

    Polygamist community faces rare genetic disorder: Scientific American

    Just wanna throw this down, as long as genetics is discussed. Don't mention anything OTHER THAN the fact that they are infact inbreeding (only cousins, not as bad as in reptile breeders) and they are infact showing an amazingly high prevalence of an extremely rare disease (50% of known cases in one inbreeding community). Everything not pertaining to the disease, the inbreeding etc, is Irrelevant. This in breeding system is strikingly similar but not as intense as some of the reptile breeding chains in, especially, the USA (and by extention, I'm ashamed of us, Canada).

    As a personal note, having sat through many a genetics related university grade lecture: Genetics submits to nobody. The laws of genes are unwaivering, unyeilding and unforgiving. This means you, captive bred herps (aka your breeders). Just because herps are tougher than us and show problems less readily, it doesn't mean it isn't there and ready to strike down leagues of captive herp generations.

    Breed responsibly.
     
  19. Debbie

    Debbie Elite Member

    For one I am not a breeder but I do know that it is not good to breed mother and son or sister to brother. It does cause problems in the gen pool and why put an animal through that by inbreeding?

    Debbie Miss Zak and Bam-Bam
     
  20. royalbabylover

    royalbabylover Elite Member

    I don't breed my herps although I may in the future.
    I have in the past bred Siberian Huskies, Rough Collies and a number of pedigree cats. These have been more hobby litters, I did show my Sibes and Collies, rather than to earn money.

    I'm in the UK and 'In breeding' is not the same as 'line breeding'.
    'In breeding' is the breeding of 'closely related' animals to one another whereas 'Line breeding' is the breeding of 'related' animals, that being animals that share ancestry, 'Line breeding' is an accepted act as this will enhance more of the better traits with a pedigree. 'In breeding' is more likely to cause defect with the young as this is the breeding of i.e:- brother/sister, mother/son, father/daughter etc.
    Line breeding would be the breeding of great grandfather/great granddaughter or a similarly related pair.
     
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