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Let Us Discuss a Bit.

Discussion in 'Bearded Dragons' started by Thalatte, Jul 10, 2013.

  1. TigerIvy

    TigerIvy Elite Member

    Merlin you are correct in a sense. The job of the colon (which is immediately INSIDE the vent if you dissect a bearded dragon) is to remove water, vitamins, minerals and electrolytes from waste material. This is the job of the colon in any species, with variance being how much is removed. diarrhea is caused by excessive water, whereas constipation is a lack of water. Now the colon connects to rectum which contains the sphincter muscles. Muscles can actually absorb liquid. If they could not you would never recieve an IM (Inter Muscular) injection. Each muscle within the body contains a series of proteins and fibers that interconnect. On basic chemical level - proteins are able to store, retain and release fluids.

    On the human body there are 2 sets of sphincter muscles that prevent liquid from "easily" entering the body. However it is possible. On a bearded dragon there is 1 set of sphincter muscles which is located inside the vent itself. It is theoretically possible for the Sarcomere cells within the sphincter to absorb water in small amounts.Even in the case of an enema - it is not the case the water "wets" the fecal matter - it re hydrates the colon allowing the natural process to restart. So simply put constipation is dehydration of the colon. This also leads to the point of why the argument is often made against sand and walnut shells. They are completely capable in sufficient portions to dehydrate the colon. From the standpoint of Anatomy is completely realistic to assume that a bearded dragon can absorb some water via the vent. I can gladly explain further with dissection pictures if needed.

    Although we are not identical to bearded dragons on some system (such as reproductive system) our GI tracts are essentially the same.
     
  2. Runningmom

    Runningmom Elite Member

    This is a fascinating biology lesson :)
     
  3. TigerIvy

    TigerIvy Elite Member

    Learn something new every day
     
  4. Thalatte

    Thalatte Elite Member

    Is the lower temp necessary? the house stays between 76-78 depending on time of day so get her cage lower will require more AC and it will throw the turtle and Tai's temps off. I can do it but it will take a weekend to adjust everyone else's temps. The ambient air on the hot side is unknown I only have the probe on the top of the rock stack. The surface of the pvc branch where she is 99.999999% of the time is at 89F.I can set another thermometer on her hot side to get the temps and give you the reading tomorrow if you still want it.
    Her bath water starts at 100F and I let it get down to 85ish before warming it back up slowly to 100F.
     
  5. TigerIvy

    TigerIvy Elite Member

    the few degrees wont matter Tia. Heck I cant get my room below 80 so there is no possible way to get the cool side below 80 either and everyone is fine. If it isnt broke - dont fix it
     
  6. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Actually it does. If there is no proof of it why would you believe it? Dehydrated animals are wetted down to cool them down, not to give them fluids other than the possibility of them consuming it.
    A perfect example is someone who is lost at sea. They can float for days in a life raft in the largest body of water in the world but still suffer from dehydration. If they could absorb water thru the skin, this would not happen.
    It does soften. But that skin is already in a process that results in fluid genereated under the skin causing it to release from the new skin. In a lack of sufficient moisture (humidity), the fluid dries out and the skin is stuck onto the new layer of skin. The extra moisture supplied by soaking allows the fluid to return under the old skin and release it.
    Yes because our skin breathes. If that is cut off we die. The same with turtles' shells. Back in the 60's it was common to see Red eared slider hatchlings which had their shells painted garish colors and patterns in order to increase their sale ability.
    Only problem was it killed them.
    Because people misinterpret things. A new keeper, seeing statements that make them think an animal drinks thru the vent, may assume that they don't need water, just plop them down in a bowl of water from time to time.

    Cassi the links you posted are an example of how some things can be misinterpreted. They merely state that soaking is recommended for a dehydrated animal, but nothing about it absorbing water thru the vent. As I stated before soaking is done in order to try to stimulate the animal to drink. If they actually did acquire any appreciable amount of fluid thru the vent, the treatment of dehydrated animals would be a simple as plopping them down in a bowl of water. There would be no need for subcutaneous injections of fluids.
     
  7. Runningmom

    Runningmom Elite Member

    "Yes because our skin breathes. If that is cut off we die. The same with turtles' shells. Back in the 60's it was common to see Red eared slider hatchlings which had their shells painted garish colors and patterns in order to increase their sale ability.
    Only problem was it killed them. "


    Wow. That is sickening. So sad. What is wrong with some people???
     
  8. cassicat4

    cassicat4 Subscribed User Premium Member

    I don't disagree. This is why I stated I would never rely on bathing alone to rehydrate a dragon (or any lizard). I have no idea how much they take in, I just believe they do take in some. Since I don't think it's measurable, assuming it's enough on its own would certainly be to the detriment of the lizard.

    I've had to treat both a rescue bearded dragon and water dragon in the past. In both instances, as per advice from two different herp vets, I was to soak the animals 3x a day in a pedialyte/water solution (as per vet words - "this will help in rehydrating them as they will absorb the electrolytes from the pedialyte") and I had to administer a pedialyte/water solution orally 3x a day as well as a Critical Care formula 2x per day. All three methods were designed to provide them with sufficient hydration (and nutrients) to eventually get them well. So you're right, if they did acquire a substantial amount of fluid through the vent, these other methods wouldn't have been as imperative.

    However, for a healthy bearded dragon (fed an appropriate diet), I do believe consistent bathing would help negate the need for the beardie to actually drink, which is why many keepers may find that their dragons rarely, if ever, drink water. This says that while the amount they absorb isn't substantial, it is enough to satiate part of the need.
     
  9. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    This says it all for me...... Thanks Merlin! ;)
     
  10. Thalatte

    Thalatte Elite Member

    Is this discussion done now?
     
  11. mayhmmaydn

    mayhmmaydn Elite Member

    the only things that makes me go Hmmm with this is that My dragons both will eliminate in the water . This is stimulation to the vent... the area we are actually talking about on the animal as being a possible hydration point if only in a small amount. When Wash eliminates, often it is in waves. It exits and slightly pulls back in. This argument actually cancels on itself for the sole reason that subcu fluids under the skin are actually less effective than an enema but are much much less likely to be re eliminated since yes.. the sphincter will release from pressure. All bodies, land living creatures, observe buoyancy and muscle relaxation when placed in water. It has something to do with pesky pressure and gravity.

     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2013
  12. Thalatte

    Thalatte Elite Member

    Look!!! She's gonna blow!!!


    image.jpg image.jpg
     
  13. cassicat4

    cassicat4 Subscribed User Premium Member

    Hey Thala, do you have an outdoor pen or something set up where she could run around and get exercise? Because rather than worry too much about her diet, I would opt for the exercise portion myself to keep her healthy. One of my leopard geckos used to be quite hefty, in spite of the fact that she only ate crickets and once a week. I started taking her out every second day, and she'd run all over the place. I think this helped keep her weight in check a bit.
     
  14. Thalatte

    Thalatte Elite Member

    well she either gets free run of my room every now and then or if weather permits she gets some exercise time with the tortoises out back. I try to do every other day but sometimes the dogs wont allow it.

    I did do this today: A73DFC32-1A51-43B4-A1EB-96E7267A53B5-16660-00001150FC1FA37C.jpg
    here she is pooping: EFDE46AF-BA81-4B89-944B-36614BCAA847-16660-000011510A0C0023.jpg BD65CF4B-60A4-4850-AAB5-C58E74984A5D-16660-00001152113D8DC6.jpg
    Here are the Babies: 4FA15DA1-7DE6-48E7-BB87-2AC318187F13-16660-000011511364D39D.jpg FF1A1CC9-ABCF-4381-9E16-079D9BE00E39-16660-000011511B3ABA68.jpg
    And here is Dozer deciding to be social: ED24FBC2-B7D4-4D16-A40B-B9E551EB7753-16660-000011512A9D4CCB.jpg
     
  15. Thalatte

    Thalatte Elite Member

    Ps after I set harley up I made sure to lock all the dogs inside so they couldnt bother us.
     
  16. TigerIvy

    TigerIvy Elite Member

    Looks like everyone had alot of fun! So uhm when ya giving me Dozer? lmao
     
  17. Thalatte

    Thalatte Elite Member

    If you can figure out how to get her to walk right you can have her.
     
  18. TigerIvy

    TigerIvy Elite Member

    She is so adorable. LOL. And dear weather permitting....dearest you live in Arizona....hahaha.
     
  19. Thalatte

    Thalatte Elite Member

    I KNOW!!! Thats why its so hard to get her out!!! most of the time its way too hot!
     
  20. mayhmmaydn

    mayhmmaydn Elite Member

    Zoey was eyeballing all the ants and bugs on the ground yesterday and licked her lips. Im afraid to take her out and let her run! lol I might never get her back lol. Devising an outdoor cage will come soon. They both love it in the afternoons when we go out. May
     

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