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Let Us Discuss a Bit.

Discussion in 'Bearded Dragons' started by Thalatte, Jul 10, 2013.

  1. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    You`ve just answered your own question; she doesn`t eat as much now she`s stopped growing so much which will obviously mean it takes longer to "fill up" and no need to "go" as often, that sounds perfectly normal?
    In the wild they don`t take a certain % of each type of food (protein/veg each day/week/month).
    Maybe you can stop feeding anything for a few days, then offer a little veg?
     
  2. MelissaB

    MelissaB Well-Known Member

    Yes, I've considered some "tough love" and that may be what I need to do to get her eating her salad again.
     
  3. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    It`s not tough love, just plain old common sense! ;)
     
  4. TigerIvy

    TigerIvy Elite Member

    Melissa stop with all roaches for a few days. Drago won't die I promise. And although Murri is right in the wild they don't get X percent of any one thing - but juxtaposition to that they can freely roam and get a heck of alot more exercise then they do within an enclosure.
     
  5. MelissaB

    MelissaB Well-Known Member

    Right now I'm picturing dragons in the wild running around with little charts, looking to check off that last bug so they can reach 20% protein intake for the day. I guess you're right and that probably isn't the way it works. :)
     
  6. TigerIvy

    TigerIvy Elite Member

    LMAO nope (and don't feel bad I have pictured that myself too). But like I said the flip side to what dragons in the wild eat is the fact they are alot more active. And liver is liver in any omnivore and excessive unused protein causes issues. If you are a weight lifter and eat 8 pieces of chicken after working out 3 hours - that is in line. If you are a couch potato and do that - its too much. Same basic thing.
     
  7. TigerIvy

    TigerIvy Elite Member

    Can someone show me scientific evidence of this please? I figure until scientific evidence shows one way or another - it is plausible not proven nor disproven.
     
  8. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    This goes back to the same old argument.
    If water can go in, it could also go out. In an arid country animal that would be a death sentence.

    The reason people are advised to soak dehydrated animals is in hope that they will drink.
     
  9. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Hi, you recently stated they hydrated themselves while brumating in the wild by absorbing moisture through the vent in the moist burrows, at the same time claiming the humidity in captivity needs to be below 30% or they could possibly develop a RI. If that is true, how much moisture (humidity) must there be in the burrow in which they may stay for several MONTHS (I suspect MUCH more than your 30%) in fact it would actually need to be quite moist, so how many thousands are dying from RI`s in the wild? Can YOU show any evidence for your assertions, and tell us where you got the info from in the first place?
    Thanks! ;)
     
  10. MelissaB

    MelissaB Well-Known Member

    Is either opinion backed up by science? I had just read that it was true in so many places that I believed it. But really, I haven't seen any hard evidence that it is true or not true, which I would be interested in reading, on both sides, so I could form my own opinion. I have read a lot of accounts of people acquiring dragons who were badly dehydrated, but when they put them in the bath for a soak, they perked up quickly. Then again, those were faceless and mostly nameless people on Internet sources so it could have been someone who had no idea what was really going on. I'm confused, and that's all I'm sure of. If all the sources are wrong, lack of hydration might really be why Drago goes so long without going to the bathroom now that she isn't eating veggies, and why she seems to struggle when she does go. Who knows.
     
  11. mayhmmaydn

    mayhmmaydn Elite Member

    Melissa, while both TigerIvy and Murri have a lot of experience and knowledge on reptiles, neither is a clinician nor a doctorate of herpetology. So much of what we DO know is from trial and error and no two scientists will agree on anything that is previously unknown. We cannot KNOW precisely what happens in the wild without massive amounts of research and money put forth on a study. What we can do however is use observation and suggestions from reliable sources to do what we can to make the lives better for our little critters. I agree with TigerIVY that's way too many roaches depending on size. My adult female if allowed to will eat herself sick on roaches. She has had up to 3 in one day and this kept her from pooping for almost 4 days. their digestion tracts work differently and Im not sure why hers takes longer than my males but it does. Just like humans we retain certain matter in our guts for a while. Zoeys poop was very dense, lots of chitin and wings n stuff. My males was regular with just bits of the roach parts in it. I do not think my female digests as effectively at my male(or doesn't chew as well lol) . It is quite possible that may also be part of your girls problem. Her system simply has too much to work on with the amount of complex tissue the roaches are putting in her. Wax worms are pretty fatty and I would hope that would lube her up and help her poop it just may be an instance of too little too late. I would back off the amount of insects you feed her daily. if you must, use superworms instead of wax. better yet phoenix worms but she really needs the nutrition and fiber from fruits and veggies to get going. Bickering on here happens. People have opinions and online words do not convey tones or emotions effectively. I have and Always will believe that bathing does help with hydration although I cannot prove it. Our skin is the largest organ we have and If we or other dehydrated animals are wetted down when found then it is common sense that even if we have no proof... doesn't mean it doesn't happen. ;) hang in there.
     
  12. MelissaB

    MelissaB Well-Known Member

    The roaches she eats are all less than 1". Most of them are more like 1/2". She had 8 of those this morning. I took a day off of bugs last week, but I think I need to take off more than one day. But I'm worried now that I am causing her to get borderline impacted, at least constipated, with too much bug and not enough veggie. I figured if she had 80 good sized crickets per day when she was growing, 8 roaches seems like a big decrease now that she's 9 months old or so, but maybe it needs to be way less than that even. We've tried Phoenix worms but she's not terribly excited about them and half of them turned into flies before she ate them last time. If she doesn't poo by midday tomorrow I will put her in her carrier and drive toward the vets office. That worked last time on day 8. Ha.
     
  13. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Hi, am I/we to take it that reptiles (in this case Agamid lizards) can absorb at least some moisture through the skin?
     
  14. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    If bathing helps keep them hydrated, why are you suggesting your dragon may be somewhat dehydrated, considering you regularly bathe her, though she doesn`t drink in the bath there`s every opportunity for the animal to absorb the water through the skin and/or the cloaca (for those of you that believe they can)? Do you know how much moisture insects contain, and how do the hatchlings/juveniles manage when they take mainly protein?
    Please understand these are just questions, NOT "arguments"! ;)
     
  15. MelissaB

    MelissaB Well-Known Member

    I was just saying that if you are correct, and the baths do not help hydrate her, she may be slightly dehydrated because she no longer eats her veggies. I was not contradicting myself, just saying that if the other info I read was incorrect, that she may not be as hydrated as I thought. Also, my dragon always ate at least some greens daily, from the first day I had her.
     
  16. mayhmmaydn

    mayhmmaydn Elite Member

    when they are shedding and the skin is dry and stuck on and we bathe them what happens to the skin? it hydrates. Now not being a scientist I have no idea if the uptake transfers on the cellular level thru to the internal organs but there is protein and lipid transfer between them which causes the release of said old tissues when in shed. Collagen is also in play for the suptleness of the tissues to interact. IF you pull scrape or cut thru the epidermis of creatures you will locate a level in which a blood supply is available however minute or available. Now.. If said skin is the largest organ on a human and you totally encase it or seal it we can die. If a land loving creature is kept wet its skin begins to rot. We are devised in such wondrous ways that just because I can not SEE it happening doesn't mean it does not or Cannot happen. If the steps we take do no harm, what is the big deal on if it is done. Lungs are devised to process air. Not water. Certain levels most certainly are emollient and acceptable for normal function, however, Lung tissue is in the oxygen business not water business and the moisture most certainly accumulates. Circulatory provisions can remove some humidity however when in a state of stasis where the body has slowed down thru illness or age the fluid can accumulate and stagnate allowing introduced bacteria thru respiration to grow and attack the lining of the lungs and possibly enter the bloodstream. Not all animals will succumb to RI when in a high humidity circumstance however; It does magnify the possibilities for those in less superlative health. Now with the Situation with Monitors and their hides or dens. When bromating/hibernating
    they shut down their systems to a very low functionability. They are not actively feeding drinking or moving about. All three of these introduce moisture to their "hides" if you will. Even if they do not absorb moisture thru their vents, Its begs to reason that while in stasis that the moisture and blood flow would indeed be more reserved to the core of the organs and major muscles. This would leave vulnerable the outter skin, digits limbs etc. A properly hydrated hide,den, etc would insure that the animal would be protected from drying out and possibly introducing once again bacteria into dried wounds which could most likely become septic.
    I have been blessed or cursed if you will , with caring for many different species of animals over my life from horses, cows, mountain lions raccoons, groundhogs squirrels etc . Domestic pets and wild critters galore
    c, parrots, finches, snakes . In most cases I have come up against dehydrated or injured animals and fluids were administered in whatever way possible. Yes occasionally rectally so it does work in some instances. Why be so sure something cant work or doesn't work if you do not know for sure. that's what my common sense says. Ever watch a horned toad drink? they stand in the water and it gets brought up through their feet. I do not know how it works. But the puddle got smaller and his throat was moving as if swallowing and his face was not in the water. Ive seen it. Yes there are some very undereducated veternarians out there when it comes to our pets. but they Practice.. PRACTICE medicine. ad no one at any time in their life should be so self assured that they know everything . we all learn and continue to learn thru experience and observation.
     
  17. cassicat4

    cassicat4 Subscribed User Premium Member

    It is well-known that many animals, including certain species of reptiles and humans, have other means of ingesting/absorbing water other than directly via mouth (i.e. through the act of drinking or eating). How much they ingest though, is rarely, if ever, defined. If it is defined, it's usually in the manner of "what proportion of their hydration is received via this method compared to other means". If the only way to prove via science that bearded dragons absorb water through their vent is on the basis of data collected detailing how much they absorb and how often in the wild, it's a losing argument. Just because it isn't necessarily an active method (or at the least, a known method) employed in the wild doesn't mean it doesn't work in captivity. Gecko saunas are recommended for dehydrated geckos, but you'd be hard-pressed to find any known examples in the wild where these lizards would use a similar means of rehydrating themselves. Or would even need to use these methods.

    With some things, especially controversial topics, I feel you have to trust your gut based on the results you have found, even if the results can't actually be defined or backed up by "detailed scientific evidence". I do firmly believe bearded dragons absorb some water through their vent. This is based on my observations through years of experience in the hobby and working with numerous different species, my own university biology studies, discussions with exotic vets and vet specialists, along with large reptile breeders and keepers, and research of my own in an effort to further my knowledge and interests. Is my opinion accurate? I have no idea. But I do know I'm comfortable with it. And I have never seen any evidence to dispute this belief.

    Now how much a dragon would absorb through his vent in the bath, I have no idea. I certainly wouldn't rely solely on baths to keep my dragon hydrated, but I do use it as a supplemental means of hydration, and would definitely use it more in the event of a dehydrated dragon. By the same token, I wouldn't rely solely on a bowl of water for him to drink, or the misting of his foliage, to keep him hydrated either.

    I do know the claim is supported by several exotic veterinarians (including two I've seen), and I'm certainly in no position to dispute their years of clinical and research experience:

    www.ivis.org/journals/exoticdvm/8-5/johnson.pdf

    An excerpt taken from Reptile Medicine and Surgery, 2ed, by Douglas Mader (under Cloaca heading) - Reptile Medicine and Surgery - Douglas R. Mader - Google Books

    http://www.veterinaryirelandjournal.com/Links/PDFs/CE-Small/CESA_May_07.pdf

    On a final note, I would say comparing a bearded dragon's humidity tolerance in a brumating vs. non-brumating dragon is irrelevant though. Their metabolic processes are extremely different, which allows them to tolerate much different conditions than a non-brumating dragon (such as lower temps, and perhaps higher humidity?). What would give a dragon an RI in one state won't necessarily be the same in the other state.
     
  18. mayhmmaydn

    mayhmmaydn Elite Member

    Lmao. Ya a threat to go to a doctor does wonders for pets and children alike. As the BDs grow so does their ability to digest hun. You are ok. Its just time she learns that she needs to eat her veggies and you are being such a good mommy feeding her lots of yummy things that she has gotten a little spoiled and only wants that. Don't whup on yourself for being loving. We are suggesting perhaps that you slow down on the insects a little. 1/2 inchers are probably fine. try only giving her maybe 4-6 each day but making sure she has her salad too. I have a stubborn one also. If she gets bugs too often she will quit eating the salad holding out for the bugs. If she doesn't get bugs or more than like one a day for a few days.. guess what? yup she eats her salad. Mine are older though so i can get away with being a little more strict. When you bath your sweetie have her laing across your palm and massage her belly lightly. I go clockwise then counter then clockwise. I also give long pets down the back with a little more downward pressure just above the vent area. They do bear down like we do when we poop so that stimulates her also. it just takes time. keep us posted and you are welcome to private message me if you like. :) May
     
  19. Thalatte

    Thalatte Elite Member

    When I first joined herp center I was aware of an experiment on water absorption through the scales of reptiles. The first experiment proved inconclusive. After many revisions it was thought to have been proven successful so The data was transfered to two separate facilities. These facilities proved the experiment inconclusive.

    SO I dont care one way or the other on it. I figure if urates are present and not funny looking then they are fine. But thats just me.
     
  20. mayhmmaydn

    mayhmmaydn Elite Member

    Most deffinately correctCassi. My comments about the brumation and hides were pointed towards an ongoing discussion if you will, between Murri and Tigerivy. Not about Dragons in particular. Im sorry if that caused some confussion. Thaqt is why i replied to Murri via his texts. :) thanks for the links. good reading that! May
     

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