Discussion in 'Amphibian - General' started by wildheart, Aug 24, 2009.
with 12 you surely would get a boy to sing to you!
Aw I'm jealous. I wanna frogs.
Oh wow 12! Thank goodness I have a month to work on Craig.
I'll phone that number tomorrow - I forgot it at home.
Maybe you can even figure out what species they are going to have and work with them starting now. Then they can even set some aside for you. I can't say what is common in the pet trade, but here, many vendors have at least 2 dozen WTF or RETF at a time.
I have two big eyed tree frogs (Leptopolis sp.). You said you live in S. Africa, right? Well, since these guys at least come from the same continent, you might get a chance to buy some at the herp expo you mentioned. They're quite friendly, and the males make a sound like a cat meowing. It's cute, and they're very vocal. They also feature sexual dimorphism (visible difference between sexes), so as soon as they become adults, you'll know which are male vs. female by their size. (Males are about 1/2 the size of adult females).
The only drawback is that they are not (yet) being captive bred, so all specimens for sale are wild caught. I don't know if that affects your ethics at all. As a general rule, I'm against wild caught animals, because it depletes native populations, wild caught animals are more likely to suffer from parasites, etc. etc. I actually didn't realize mine were wild caught, until I got home and realized I couldn't even find a basic care sheet online.
A defense of wild caught ampibians is that it's the only way to start up a captive breeding population, which you could probably do with a tank your size. (It might be tough, though; females lay eggs in the soil along a water body, and the tadpoles wriggle into the water when the time comes. Not really something that's going to happen on its own if you don't set up the right enclosure.)
I find that most frogs sold as adults are wild caught, it's usually the biggest give away. That and massive nose rub, although the nose rub could be from being raised in a tank that is too small with too many other frogs.
Big-eyed tree frogs sound like peacocks, hence the additional common name "peacock tree frog".
And they are beautiful frogs, but yes, 95% of them are wild caught. I saw a few once that claimed to be CB, but I'm not sure I believed them.
I actually didn't realize that ANY had been bred in captivity. That's a start, at least. (If you bump into any info on them, I'd appreciate it if you could send it along my way. I haven't found much that's more specific than a field guide, yet. I'm pretty sure the species I have is Leptopelis vermiculatus.)
Like I said, the 5% I saw claimed to be CB, but they were also adults, so I have my doubts.
I phoned the guy, he wasnt in the office at the time so he said that he will phone me back with details. He said there is 38 exhibits and assured me that there will be frogs.
I read the Whites tree frog Care sheet and I am amazed at how easy it is to set them up. I like the Whites sound, Liz said they have the best character so that is a definite winner and I also think the cage will be best for an arboreal and not a semi-arboreal frog.
The Red eye tree frog are sooo beautiful, I LOVE them. I surged for a care sheet for them and found this one:
Red-Eye Tree Frog Caresheet (Agalychnis callidryas)
If they require high humidity of 80 -100% then my cage will not work. I used to battle to keep the humidity above 60% for forest.
Liz you suggested lots of life plants - I am glad about that because life is so much cheaper. Can you recommend specific plants that cope well in a Whites setup? I would like to start surging for them.
I found this terrarium and instructions of how to make it. PLEASE go through the steps and check if anything is used that will not go well with Whites.
Front-Opening Showcase Vivarium How-To
I read this in the care sheet: fill a bottle with tap water and leave to stand for 24-48 hours, allowing the chlorine to evaporate. I did not know that! I suppose the bottle must stand without a cap on?
What substrate works best for you and do these frogs mess a lot?
I don't know if you remember the tub of water that is in river's cage - it is the same size as a cat litter box. Will it work if I place one like that at the bottom with rocks around and inside or should I look for something else?
You are right that the cap must be off for chlorine to evaporate. Check with your local water department to make sure that your tapwater is not also treated with chloramines. Chloramines do NOT evaporate out of water, so if that is present in your tap water, you will definitely need a chorine and chloramine removing product like "chlor-out."
Some things to keep in mind when aging water (this is what we call the process of letting water sit to lose its chlorine):
>The bigger the opening, the easier it is for chlorine bubbles to escape. (If you're using a gallon jug, chlorine won't actually leave the jug until you agitate/shake the water, because the opening is very small and placed at the peak of a slope that will trap the bubbles.)
>Chlorine bubbles form more quickly in hot water than in cold. You can still use cold tap water, but you will want to let it sit for longer.
>Always remember to let the water reach room temperature before using it with your animals.
I'm glad to know you've settled on the White's Tree Frogs. That makes it easier for you to narrow down your research and learn everything there is to know about that species. I haven't kept that exact species, so I'll let someone else jump in with feedback about its care.
Thanks for all the water tips, I think I will have to get a de-chlorinator machine thingy! You sure know your water.
I've kept fish since I was 7, so I'm full of useful information.
You shouldn't need a full machine. There are drops that you can buy that should be fairly inexpensive. If you find any store/website that sells fish supplies, you can ask/search for dechlorinator, and they should have it. (Again, if you know your tapwater doesn't have chloramine, you can go with the aged tapwater method. I tend to do this, and I only use the drops when I don't have time to let the water sit out for 24+ hours.)
Our system does not work very well here in SA, so even if I do phone the water department, the person picking up will most probably not know the correct facts. I think I should rather play safe than sorry.
I am glad that I learned this part, it would have been a disaster if I did not know!
Whites will need a humidity of about 70%, but with the addition of all the live plants, this should not be a problem. I'm guessing Forest did not have any live plants. You can do them so simple as to put them in hanging baskets from branches.
Do you have a photo of Forests old enclosure? I think that might help me a lot, in helping you get something set up.
The photo you posted is more for Dart frogs, than a Whites. Here is a photo of mine. You want to put in lots of cross branches. Think like a tree. They do not need the fancy back ground I have, just lots of hiding spaces in plants. A pothos is my #1 favorite plant to use.
They do poop a lot, but if you put a water dish or two in the bottom, as well as some plants right in the substrate and some beneficial bugs, this will keep cleaning to a minimum. Also if you hang plants, they are easy to take out and clean! You will have room for that in your setup.
Thanks for the plant name and for looking at the plans of that cage.
I looked through all my photos, there arent one that show the complete cage - they are all closeups of mr forest.
I'm going home later then I'll take a photo, just be warned, there are nascars and a Ferrari in it.
I see in your picture that you have big air vents, is it necessary? My cage has glass in front and the sides. There is only 2 small air vents. If it is important then we can maybe make a plan on the backboard.
I love your background! With what did you do it? I love decorating cages it is one of my favorite hobbies.
You mentioned beneficial bugs?
I'm OK with nascars and Ferrari.
No, the two giant air vents were not necessary. In fact most of the time, especially in winter when the heat is on, I cover them up 100%. Right now they are both open, because the temp in my house is just dandy for cool areas and its very humid out. You might want to modify to have vents that are able to close and open as needed. Its much easier to regulate humidity that way.
There is a "how to do it" thread on my background in the Habitat section. I'll try to track it down.
Beneficial bugs are the kinds that live on the bottom and break down poop and other toxins. Of course I have no idea what you have available in SA. You may have to ask around at the show for someone who deals in those kinds of bugs. Just dump them down into the bottom substrate with some plants.
You are going to want substrate at the bottom of this enclosure. At least 6 inches of organic dirt, to accommodate plants and bugs. This means you are going to have to water-proof the bottom very very well.
Organic dirt would be the same as compost, maybe a mixture of compost and potting soil? Thanks for the water-proof part, I will definitely have to do that. Maybe I should try and put glass / plexiglass on top of the wood to protect it as well.
For my bottom layer, I made a bottom out of plexi to hold the moisture. It sits right inside the wood. My frogs like to squash between that and the door that opens.
For my substrate, I use organic potting soil and eco-earth, mixed 50-50. Again, I don't know what supplies you have in SA at your disposal. As long as your compost is chemical free, you can use that, and maybe mix in some peat moss. Compost tends to be heavy and can rot roots.
I also need to ask, how air-tight are things? You are going to have to worry about crickets escaping, unless you want to hand feed a dozen or so frogs every three days. That could easily take up to 2 hours. They most likely won't eat anything out of a bowl, and if they did, one frog would pig out first and the rest will go hungry. These are one type of frog that has the habit of over eating.
I would suggest putting in 4 dozen or so appropriately sized crickets and let them hunt. This will keep weight off and keep them entertained. I do the dump method in the winter, when my vents are for the most part closed and the crickets can't escape.
I might have some problems securing the branches because of the glass, we will just have to figure it out.
The top part of the cage opens up completely so it won't be too difficult to get the plexibox in.
The wood started swelling because of the humidifier that I used for forest, so that was a problem. Do you think it will be necessary to have a humidifier if I have a tray of water at the bottom and lots of plants? I guess that only testing will tell.
I just got hold of the people that are suppose to have frogs. They only have 1 dart frog - that is all.
I phoned the guy from the pamphlet again and he said he will check his list and make phone calls for me.
It seems like we really do not have frogs for sale in SA.
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