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Gorging

Discussion in 'Monitors' started by Og_, Dec 12, 2009.

  1. Og_

    Og_ Elite Member

    I feel a little bit responsible for the "Gorging and fasting" thread because I did mention in a previous post about monitors being,"Gorging" animals!
    The whole argument went well beyond anything that I was thinking about!
    I agree completely and I believe this is what I have been arguing all along!

    I never imagined a monitor eating until they become engorged on a weekly or even a monthly basis and then go on a fast!

    They may have snacks available every day ranging from slugs,snails, and worms to the occasional scorpion, millipede, and even carrion.

    I never meant to say that they fill their stomachs to the brink and then go on a fast!

    However, with savannah monitors specifically, They do go through a drought season. They need to pack on the pounds while times are good to survive in the lean times!

    Savs retain this behavioral instinct even while captive! They do not have the ability to "Turn Off" this survival instinct. They do not have the ability to see themselves in a mirror and decide that they need to lose weight!

    I believe it to be very rare that any savannah monitor has the ability to feed to the extent that it is actually throwing up a small amount in the wild! (Is my memory right?, That I read someone saying that they fed their monitor enough until it threw up just a little bit?)

    Someone else posed the question of how does a monitor get exercise?
    #1 Rule!, It is better for your monitor to be "A little hungry" than it is to be "A little full"!
    As long as they are hungry, they will move around searching for food. If they are full all the time, they will just lay there doing nothing!
    How many animals on this earth have their bellies filled to the max on a regular basis?
    We can point out a lot of them,Us!, But I can assure you that monitors are NOT the lard "Butts" of the animal kingdom! At least not naturally! There is no reason for them to be obese in captivity either!

    It seems that we have a weakness watching them feed!
    I wonder, if monitors were vegetarians, Where would the interest lie?
     
  2. silentjt

    silentjt Elite Member

    Don't worry about it, I started the thread in response to Dr. Frys gorging and fasting method with his monitors.

    I agree with everything you said. Having Argus I'm very familiar with monitors that have no problem gorging themselves. Believe me, keeping Argus a little hungry is pure excitement when you open their cage.;)

    I'm sure Vegans would get a rise out of it.:D

    Jesse
     
  3. Haslett

    Haslett Elite Member

    I simply said that Dr. Fry's practice sounded odd to me as I had never heard of anyone feeding in this manner. I also related some of my experiences and theories relating to the feeding practices I employ and how my own animals respond to them. I never thought it would turn into a federal case. I did not see the discussion as "bashing" Brian Fry at all as I'm sure he has a very good understanding of varanids and has his own reasons for doing things a certain way.
     
  4. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    I too had not heard of the practice of feeding them every two weeks, I simply stated that if it results in healthy animals, then in HIS case it works, I have always fed my monitors on a slightly more regular basis, offering smaller ammounts more frequently, I feed a relatively large meal every 7 to 10 days. I also think it`s important to mention that this only applies to the ADULT animal/s. The baby/juveniles should be fed almost daily, because they grow at the maximum rate during the first 2 or 3 years, as we are all well aware! And Og, you were right to call varanids "gorge feeders", at least in the sense that if you put food in front of them, they will eat that, and be ready for more, it`s critically important for people to realise this, and at the first sign of the animals becoming overweight, (as apposed to having a full stomach, and a well rounded body), make immediate adjustments to the ammounts and frequency, it is NOT hard to reduce their intake, it`s just difficult at times for the less experienced keeper to understand. Most wild monitors do NOT get large meals daily, or 3 times a week?? The captives with nowhere to go and for the most part, nothing to do, and no predators to avoid, females delivered to their doors, need LESS, not more, to keep them in good health and condition. As Og, Jesse and myself have said said, a little less is better than a little more, (in captivity)... It`s sooo easy, anyone can do it!!
    A word on "gorging and fasting": They are REPTILES, albeit with a relatively high metabolism, needing only a fraction of the food intake of a mammal of similar-size, which may well eat/need a "large" meal daily. In the cases where larger prey are eaten, it takes a few days for them to digest the meal, so the next meal may be some time coming. In the wild, komodo dragons, after feeding on a very large prey animal can go for a few weeks without properly feeding again. In other species, it depends on the time of year, prey abundance, etc. in parts of their range, famine and feast happens sometimes...
     
  5. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Sometimes we all write something, thinking it`s perfectly clear what we mean, and how its meant to be taken; unfotunately we ALL get that wrong from time to time, if you`d explained it as clearly as this the first time, it wouldn`t have sounded so disrespectful to someone who DOES have a good knowledge of these animals, and has access to the very best advise... (Join the club, I regularly do it)! :eek:
     
  6. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    If varanids were vegetarians, there wouldn`t be much left for the rest of the animal kingdom, there certainly wouldn`t, no siree!!
     
  7. Haslett

    Haslett Elite Member


    There is not a hint of disrespect or "bashing in the following statement and, again, I am perfectly justified in questioning it.

     
  8. Og_

    Og_ Elite Member

    I think that there is plenty of bias to go around here. Knowing what the spirit is and what it truly means can sometimes just be in the eye of the beholder.
     
  9. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    You are quite entitled to ask for the reasons behind Bryan Fry`s (or anyone elses) feeding method, but to do it on a forum where he doesn`t visit, or have knowledge of anyone agreeing/disagreeing is pointless, I gave you all his web address, I don`t think any of you bothered contacting him, in my opinion it`s disrespectful, because you don`t have/haven`t bothered to ask for the details to doubt this or any other method works, (other than your own feeding regime, which in your case, results in TWO long-term overweight animals). Although I know for certain you aren`t the first, nor will you be the last person to make this "beginners" mistake of too much food too often, I`m just puzzled that it`s been that way for so long, as you state you first noticed it at 18 months of age, so it was obviously happening even before then, and I believe they are both around 3 years old just now, (very young adults). I would like to ask if you could give the following measurements: Snout to vent, Total, and head length from anterior edge of tympanum, plus mass. Thanks!
     
  10. MDFMONITOR

    MDFMONITOR Elite Member

    At Rogers niles age you can afford to have abit of extra weight on them , because you can soon work it off, i'm sure you've experience the same problems in your time. The idea of sharing your experiences is to allow others to learn from them, if you've never made a mistake you're not lived. If i remember Roger's nile weight problem was down to monitor that was been pushed away from the basking spots by a more dominant male, which is a problem most people don't come across.

    I've seen Rogers enclosures & Jesse enclosures & there huge & the monitors that live with-in them are highly reactive to food, most monitors i've seen on vids you could sit them at the queens table their feeding response is that relaxed.There was a part on lizard kings on feeding response at london zoo, the Komodo dragon target training, calm when target out of sight, on the hunt & responsive when target in sight.

    I would like to see your setup, as i find viewing many different enclosures gives you huge amount of info when altering your own enclosure or moving up to a bigger beast.
    I've seen your monitor once, but the vid seems to have been deleted now , is it somewhere else now, i would really like to watch it again!
     
  11. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    I have removed the last posts where we are, ONCE AGAIN, descending into insults and name calling. I would REALLY like to allow this discussion to continue but if it goes back into the nonsense I just removed, once again, a potentially enlightening discussion will be LOCKED!
     
  12. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    I hope this thread doesn`t get locked, this is such an important topic: "How much and what type of foods to offer carnivorous varanids in captivity". I havent been able to see the insults, but they are nothing new to me, I get them quite regularly, but still I think it`s critically important to have a serious, CIVILISED discussion!
     
  13. Haslett

    Haslett Elite Member

    Again, murrindindi, statements such as those quoted above really should be substantiated with PROOF, such as direct quotes from the posts from which the information was gathered. Unfortunately, the above statements are untrue and cannot be substantiated. Still you really should be held to your word when you choose to post hearsay and slander.

    The lateral folds can clearly be seen on each and every one of my animals, something that cannot be said for truly obese varanids. This has been the case for their entire lives, even for the one individual at ONE YEAR OF AGE.
     
  14. Dragoness

    Dragoness Elite Member

    I guess a good question to ask is whether there is any specific formula to calculate what a healthy and "ideal" weight range is for any given species of varanid?

    Some formula that accounts for gender, length, and possibly age.

    There is no point debating the weight of a lizard, if the weight it "should" be has not even been clearly defined...

    How can we know for sure if a lizard is over or under weight, if we do not know what it SHOULD weigh?
     
  15. Og_

    Og_ Elite Member

    While this statement is true, I question How that statement is constructive in this debate. We have been going around in circles for months now! I am frankly quite tired of it!

    You have already stated time and time again that his monitors are obese. If he has not accepted this after all this time, Why do you believe repeating yourself is going to matter?

    It's time to move on! If another person comes on this forum with pics of what you believe is an overweight monitor, Maybe they will be more receptive to your ideas than Haslett!
    Haslett is not the center of the monitor universe!

    This is not a fight over the minds and souls of newbies! I understand the mentality that some people have on the forums about only caring about the animals without having any respect for the owner! Sometimes in the fora, Some people feel like you should have known what you got yourself into before you got your animal! That is not always the case, so we have to help those who are going through the learning curve!

    I think that we do a disservice sometimes when we take the attitude that newbies are as dumb as dirt! Today's electronic world has opened a floodgate of information about everything one wants to know.
    I am more worried about a keeper that has no internet connection! Of course we will NEVER hear from them!

    I have no interest in perpetuating this circus that has continued for months now! It is time to rise up to a different level!
    It's time to... "Just move on!"

    I believe it has gotten to the point where any new person feels intimidated to talk about anything in fear of being pounced upon! There are a lot of young people out there who can't handle that!

    Some people seem to think that it is "Weak" to be nice and polite! they see themselves as "Tough Love" or "Tough something"!
    While that Ideal may be great in theory, Human nature is much more complex! Ego is something that has to be taken into mind! We all have an Ego!
    It all boils down to respect.
    If we can just respect each other, That is the challenge!
     
  16. gbassett

    gbassett Elite Member

    [QUOT ONE large meal every 7 to 10 days is sufficient for an adult varanid in captivity, [/QUOTE]

    however, these days I think most people prefer to feed smaller prey...

    Here are two quotes taken from you Stafan.Witch one is it one large meal every 7-10 days,or smaller daily feeds

    Monitors are active forgers it is better to offer smaller daily feeding.Mark,Jesse,and yes Roger have perfect fit looking adult Monitors.As I have stated before your Ornate looks very looks the same as Rogers Niles,so by calling Rogers Niles over weight you are also stating that your monitor is over weight.


    greg
     
  17. gbassett

    gbassett Elite Member

    Stafan,the point of my post was how can you argue one thing on this thread,but give the same advice you are auguring about on this thread.
     
  18. Kendalle

    Kendalle Elite Member

    I would really like to learn about monitors, however, the monitor threads here just give me a headache.

    It seams like every thread turns into the same thing weight of monitors.

    It seams like all of you are doing fairly well with your lizards as they look large, have big cages, you all agree on temps, you all agree for the most part about the set ups, you all agree on letting your lizards forage and having lots of different kinds of food and you all give the same advice to newbies.

    What exactly are you fighting about? what is the debate about? DO any of you feed yours until they puke? I don't think you do from what i understand.

    Do all of you not feed some rodents along with insects and other foods? Do not all of you feed larger and small meals?

    stephen i think feeds both large meals every week to 10 days as well as small meals daily to keep the monitors on their toes so to speak and get some exercise chasing small foods around the house every day.

    He agrees as far as i can tell to feed a large meal weekly but not only large meals and fasting in between.

    To my understanding montiors in the wild do not just eat every 10 days like i said in the other thread if you want to do what is most like the wild in feeding why not feed not on schedule per-say but to feed large meals every once and a while, medium meals more frequently, and small meals most of the time. Very it up. Not only give a verity of foods, but also a verity of size meals. From letting them gorge on carrion maybe every few months. Ration them to small meals every few months, and forage small prey such as insects, rodents, chicks, and other small prey the rest of the time.

    No i don't have any experience with monitors. No that does not mean i cannot put my input in monitor threads.
     
  19. MDFMONITOR

    MDFMONITOR Elite Member

    That's probably a good way to look at , pick all the things out that everyone agrees on & ask specific questions from then on, as for food i change my feeding routines from time to time & prey size just to change routine & find easier ways of keeping that belly down & those thighs toned!!

    My older sav would be quite happy been fed 4 adult black crickets & a large mealworm am & the same pm, keeps his belly trim & his feeding instinct there & maintains his growth. But i still throw other food items in mice locusts etc to keep varied prey in his diet & variety.
     
  20. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    I think we agree on ALMOST everything regarding feeding, housing, conditions etc, but even the worlds leading authorities on varanids have disagreements on some points! There isn`t a specific plan which suits ALL monitors, we have to do whatever suits our own specimens the best, the MOST important parameters are housing, heating, humidity, foods and frequency of feeding, and feeding frequency/ammounts changes as the animals grow, and MUST be regulated to avoid obesity, having the fastest growth rates or the largest/heaviest monitor is NOT in the best interest of the animal/s, (more the keepers seeking attention, in my opinion)...
     

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