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Frilled Dragon - Possible Tail Rot

Discussion in 'Lizards - General' started by sgun020, Jan 1, 2014.

  1. sgun020

    sgun020 Well-Known Member

    Hi again

    So i checked alto today, the infection doesn't move upwards, however the discoloured area has started to smell (when i put my nose close to the area). The discoloured area, as i mentioned before has started to harden, not as limp.

    If you could see the picture i attached earlier, at the kink (between the healthy part and the infected area), when i touched the kink part, alto whipped his tail away...i assume that part hurts him.

    My question...if i were to inject baytril on him at the infected area, would it be useful at this stage? Also, the baytril i could find here looks like this: µÂ¹ú°Ý¶úBaytril °ÝÓÐÀûÕë¼Á(¶÷ŵɳÐÇ)¿¹¾úÏûÑ×ÏûÑ×Ò© 1ºÁÉýÉ¢Âô-ÌÔ±¦Íø

    Is this the same one?
     
  2. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Hi, I cannot say whether that is the same product, here is a link, tell me if it is the same. Baytril

    I think perhaps it would be better if you can find an orally administered antibiotic (you cannot inject anything into the dead/dying part).
    If the tail is starting to harden it`s dead/dying tissue. It can take weeks to move further up, you may not notice anything from day to day, that`s why I believe amputation may be the best course of action.
    Can you take one more photo of the dead/infected part , place the tail on a piece of white paper then mark with a pen where you think the healthy part is, it may be somewhat clearer than the other photos. Measure exactly how much might need amputating (if you decide to do it you will need to go approx 4mm into healthy tissue).
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
  3. sgun020

    sgun020 Well-Known Member

    Hi...

    I'll take the picture soon, once he's finished with his meal and basked a bit.

    I think the baytril on the link you gave me is different, the baytril i can buy here can also be administered orally...i looked up online on baytril and the western version says baytril 100, the ones i can find here is baytril 5%...i have no idea on the difference and dosage for this one, assuming the dosage on the link posted by thalatte is baytril 100.

    Part of the infected lower tail has definitely started to shrink and dry out, thankfully, doesn't go upwards...in the mean time. I've got a friend who's a medical student that can help with amputating the tail, she's got all the equipments. Unfortunately she doesn't have the anesthetic as we're unable to buy it from local pharmacy...

    My question is...if i do decide to amputate the tail, it was mentioned that approx 4mm to be amputated into the healthy tissue, since it's healthy tissue, i assume alto can definitely feel the blade cutting through (without anesthetic)...and we cannot get pain killers for reptiles either, i'm afraid alto would be under stress post op, which wouldn't be beneficial for his health.

    If we are to amputate the dead part (he won't feel much, if any, when the blade cut through), we obviously are taking some risks for the infection to spread in the future.

    I'm a bit confused on what to do...i want alto to get better, if we could get anesthetic and the drugs post op, i'd definitely gone through it soon...i'm just worried on the effect afterwards, alto is very sensitive to everything and is easily stressed.
     
  4. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Hi, there would be no point in only amputating the dead part, because that will probably fall of itself in due course. The most important thing is to take off the infected piece slightly into healthy tissue so you are confident the infection is not present in the remaining portion.
    Yes, it will cause some stress and pain, but if the alternative is to do nothing the animal may die quite soon if the infection continues, as I mentioned that will be a very painful death.
    You need to get some oral antibiotics, then decide what to do, the longer you wait the more chance it will not work out.
    When amputating the tail tip it consists of one single, swift movement slicing through with a scalpel/similar (it would take a split second). I guess at the point of amputation the tail will only be approx 5 to 6mm thick? If it were higher up and much thicker I would not advise trying.
    If this is done before the lizard has warmed up and after numbing the area with a small piece of ice, I doubt it will be too painful, or make him "hate" you forever!
    This is last resort because the vets won`t/can`t help, not something I would advise under normal circumstances, and of course I understand your concerns.
     
  5. sgun020

    sgun020 Well-Known Member

    hi again

    thank you for the reply. i've asked my friend to seek her opinion before she amputates the tail,i do think it's important to remove the infected part...the dark brittle area has moved upwards so the mushy part has slightly shrunk.

    just to be sure,when you say infected part,it is the discoloured slightly mushy part,yes? sorry,just to be sure...because i read online about tail rot and many say if the darkened area goes upwards then infection is still there.

    if i were to amputate it soon,yes,the diameter would be less than 5mm. is there anything you can suggest to stop the bleeding? and perhaps a numbing cream for the area? will stitches be needed? sorry for the many questions,i'm very anxious without professional help here...i'd like it to be as painless as possible for alto.
     
  6. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Hi, I`m only going by what you say and the photos, I cannot tell you exactly where the infection is other than you are saying the "mushy" part is now hardening which means it`s dead/dying tissue. If infection is still there (?) that will indeed continue further up.
    I have similar experience with 2 Varanids (Varanus ornatus and V. salvator) which have lost the tip of their tail. In the Ornate monitor it was approx 4cm but that was over several months, a small piece at a time (it appeared to heal completely then started to shrivel again) though I did not remove it, it fell off itself, after that there were no more problems.
    The Water monitor (V. salvator) lost approx. 6mm when he hit the tailtip on a large rock, that healed completely, I just applied a diluted solution of iodine to the tip:1 (one) part iodine to 50 (fifty) parts water.
    Stitches would not be necessary, it`s too small a diameter. Neither should it be covered (bandaged), I suggest keeping the dragon on paper kitchen towels until the tip has started healing (you should see that happening).
     
  7. sgun020

    sgun020 Well-Known Member

    hello

    ok,i've got it...i just hope when we take the tail off,it will heal nicely...*nervous*

    sorry, one more question, it's going to sound stupid...but how can i tell if the infection is still there? so far i don't see any difference apart from the mushy part is dying, it hasn't gone further up.

    thanks again in advance. i'm going to try my luck one last time, calling an animal hospital in beijing, it seems they have one reptile vet...i could probably ask if she has a contact in the city where i live. i wish i live closer to beijing,it's about 5 hours train ride,with minus 20 degree outside,just not feasible to take alto there...:(
     
  8. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Hi, I think if part of the tail is still mushy it sounds like the infection IS still present? As I mentioned, it may not be very obvious that it`s moving further each day.
    I was actually going to ask you how the weather was just now, thinking if it was quite warm you may be able to take the lizard outside (in an enclosure) for some fresh air and unfiltered sunlight, but obviously not in minus 20! :((( ;)
    I think it would be great if there were someone in your city who could help, but if not, I`m fairly confident you could do it yourself.
     
  9. sgun020

    sgun020 Well-Known Member

    hello

    yeah winter in the northeastern part of china is brutal,i hate it... :(

    the mushy part has started to harden,starting at the lower part of the tail...my friend is busy until thursday,so the earliest time she can help me is friday...hopefully it's going to be ok,so far it seems alright.

    called the doctor but she was busy and i was told she would call back...waiting is painful...
     
  10. sgun020

    sgun020 Well-Known Member

    Ok so the doctor called back, with quotes on the surgery and post op costs, close to 400 usd which i think was alright...however she did mention the distance and weather, so she will look into someone around my city (fingers crossed, hopefully), and she will also give suggestions on antibiotics that can be bought locally in the mean time.

    I'm slightly relieved, at least she didn't bounce me from one hospital to another. So...yes...
     
  11. Thalatte

    Thalatte Elite Member

    Thats great! Hopefully she will be able to get you in contact with someone. One big indicator of infection is smell. If their is an odor (usually a sickeningly sweet smell) that is a sign of rot somewhere.
     
  12. sgun020

    sgun020 Well-Known Member

    mmexport1389684813857_resized_1.jpg

    Hi again

    I visited Alto today, and found this (attached picture). So the discoloured mushy part had dried out and broke off.

    I cleaned the wound with betadine and applied neosporin, hope the wound would close and no further infection (fingers crossed).
     
  13. Thalatte

    Thalatte Elite Member

    Thats great. Make dure to keep him in a clean sterilized house for atleast a week though a month would be better to make sure it doesnt get reinfected.
     
  14. sgun020

    sgun020 Well-Known Member

    yea i plan to clean his cage again thoroughly tomorrow. should i still put the branches up? he still climbs around like nothing happened.
     
  15. Thalatte

    Thalatte Elite Member

    Yeah you can leave his branches. Just no substrate, water needs to be changed daily, and any messes should be cleaned as soon as you see them.
    all basic stuff you are probably doing anyways.
     
  16. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Hi again, I`m not sure if it`s just me, but I can`t enlarge the photo, so nothing is clear, do you have any more?
    Can you link me to the type of Neosporin you`re using?
     
  17. sgun020

    sgun020 Well-Known Member

  18. Thalatte

    Thalatte Elite Member

    Can you take a closeup of the end of his tail now? It looks really good in the second photo.
     
  19. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Hi, thanks for the photos, good to hear he`s active and the tail has broken off itself. You will need to keep an eye on the tip for the next couple of months (I know you mentioned you were going away shortly), if the very tip starts to decrease in diameter it`s still dying tissue.
    I asked for details on the Neosporin because I`ve heard from a number of very experienced and knowledgeable Varanid (monitor lizard) keepers that Neosporin is petroleum based and reptiles cannot break down petroleum based products (I know some people do use the type without pain relief)?
     
  20. Thalatte

    Thalatte Elite Member

    If you use it as a topical (skin application only) ointment it is perfectly safe to use. The problem is that the kind that has the pain relief-well that pain killer is poisonous to reptiles. The kind your using (original ointment) is safe. I use it for all my reptiles.
     

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