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Fact Vs Fiction

Discussion in 'Herp Awareness' started by EriksExotics, Feb 18, 2014.

  1. EriksExotics

    EriksExotics Elite Member

    That's a bold statement considering PETA has over 30 counts of animal abuse under their belts. I would call them anything but advocates for animal rights.
     
  2. DwarvenChef

    DwarvenChef Elite Member

    peta2_zps762f146b.gif

    After listening to PETA for decades cry wolf, each and every time finding their action just as destructive or hairbrained. I will not support any extremist group no matter what they call them selves or what they say they stand up for. It has been proven time and again that they are no better than those they attack.
     
  3. EriksExotics

    EriksExotics Elite Member

    PETA is anti animal abuse. And Hitler was anti racism.
     
  4. MorganLeFay

    MorganLeFay Elite Member

    "By their fruits ye shall know them"
    Sorry, I have a religious hangover from that thread about the pastor :p But it applies really well here :)
     
  5. mshrmheadcharge

    mshrmheadcharge Moderator Staff Member Premium Member

    Dang, ya got me. I'll just inform my Jewish family that Hitler loved them and was trying to help.
    You see, this mind frame is extreme. You're blinded by entitlement to life(your animals) that you can't momentarily think outside of yourself, to see another perspective.
    And that is alright, it's your choice, your opinion.
     
  6. CryHavoc17

    CryHavoc17 Elite Member

    ^^^^

    You're dodging my question. Its a pretty simple question. If there is no such thing as pet "ownership" how can their still be such a thing as pets? I dont understand how those two concepts can coexist, to me they seem to be mutually exclusive
     
  7. mshrmheadcharge

    mshrmheadcharge Moderator Staff Member Premium Member

    I'm sorry, let me better explain myself and my point of view.
    You have every right to bring another animal into your family, absolutely. But do you think your cat views itself as "yours" as "property"? If course it doesn't, it is part of your family part of your life. Your dog views itself as part of your pack, not as your personal belonging.
    I mean you cannot own an animal in the sense that, this animals life isn't for sale. You have little control over its actions and thoughts. It is not yours to control. It is not yours to do whatever you please. It has its own life, feelings heartbeat and mind. You can have an animal as a member of your family, but you don't own him. Does that make sense?
    For snakes and reptiles it's harder, because they are kept in enclosures, and are fully dependent on you for its every need. It can't even take a drink of water unless you provide it. And if you are providing and caring and loving this animal then yes, you should continue to do so. But there are those out there that don't provide basics for these guys, and they suffer. Look at petco, it's sickening to look at how they keep the reptiles. These animals deserve a better experience then this. If you insist on keeping them as "yours" then wouldn't you say regulations should be made to ensure they have the best lives possible in captivity? It's the same with every pet, they are our companions in this life.

    When you die, you will die alone. Not with these animals.. So in a sense, you are all you will ever own in this life. That is all I mean.

    Edit to add these animals don't exist for your pleasure oh my goodness. Are they not entitled to exist for themselves? Do YOU exist for MY pleasure or the pleasure of another being? Of course not. The exist for the same reason we all do, to have a shot at life. To reproduce and evolve to keep their species alive as long as possible.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2014
  8. MorganLeFay

    MorganLeFay Elite Member

    I think what HeadCharge means is that you can't ever have complete control over a living creature. Control and ownership is different, the latter is usually a formal way of saying that an animal lives with you, but in reality it is always an independent, living and feeling creature that you will never be able to fully understand or control.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2014
  9. mshrmheadcharge

    mshrmheadcharge Moderator Staff Member Premium Member

    This is essentially what I believe.
    But I also think changes need to be made, for the sake of these animals and for ourselves. How many people on here post about the horrors of chain pet stores, or Craigslist ads?
    Rather then getting caught up on what's yours, why not put that energy towards better standards of living for these animals we care so much for? It does not have to be acceptable to keep animals in poor conditions. We have the power to change this practice, unfortunately the dying water monitor in a ten gallon fish tank no longer has control over its own life. It's not extreme to desire change or have compassion for other species. Lol, a Jewish girls beliefs being compared to Hitler. Now I have heard it all. Go ahead with your bad self, SnakeGuy. Hissss.
     
  10. CryHavoc17

    CryHavoc17 Elite Member

    I agree that there needs to be a fundamental shift in how captive reptiles are treated by a lot of people, be they for profit enties who keep the minimal standard of care to maximize profits or casual owners who just dont know any better. But to me excessive regulation is not the answer. Animal cruelty is animal cruelty. Its a crime regardless of what kind of animal we are dealing with. Why is it that nobody will apply these laws to reptiles? I have absolutely no idea. It doesnt make any sense to me at all. Animal cruelty is one of those things; im hesitant to define it, but I know it when I see it.

    Regulations end up doing as much or more harm then good. Take a look at the recent exotics legislation in ohio. On the surface it seems like exactly the kind of perfectly rational regulations you are advocating for. Minimum enclosure sizes, permits to keep and breed certain species, ect. But the results have been clear; if you own a regulated exotic in Ohio it is impossible to bring it up to par with the new legislation. Your only available options are: illegally smuggle it out of state for rescuing/rehoming, turn it over to the state in which case it WILL be destroyed, or go underground and keep it illigally, risking criminal pentlies if you ever get caught and your animals being destroyed anyway.
     
  11. Darkbird

    Darkbird Moderator Staff Member

    I'm only going to address one aspect of this discussion, and that is to those calling for laws and regulations. Legislating, banning, regulating, permitting, and so on are a complete waste of time and do nothing to fix the root of the problem. There are just too many who will ignore the law, and too many laws already that never get enforced. The real issue is the inherent belief that we are superior, and that we may do as we please with all that we see. Many are taught to revere human life, but not the life in the world around us. That part often gets missed. What really needs to happen is that everyone needs to look at the world around them and believe, and I mean really believe here, that it all matters, and that it must be respected. Without that, laws, rules, heck even morality means nothing. I'm not saying we should all become vegans, or that we have to have a sudden and dramatic shift in our society, we just need to educate. And to set an example of the way things should be done. Of course, I realize I'm preaching to the choir, so to speak, but I cringe a bit every time I hear people calling for legislation where education is called for. But I'll end this here, it's already been more of a rant than I intended.
     
  12. mshrmheadcharge

    mshrmheadcharge Moderator Staff Member Premium Member

    You two are absolutely right, but how can a change be made, if not forced by the government? It's sad that it has come to this. And I certainly don't agree with more laws, but how else do we change people's ideas of how to treat a different species? How else do you send the message that it is NOT acceptable to treat animals with such disregard?
    And clearly I'm a vegan. Shush. I love me some animals. I have a rescue cow for Petes sake!
    I just hate abuse, in every from.
     
  13. Awano

    Awano Member

    I've always wondered why this isn't the case. Seems so obvious.
     
  14. Awano

    Awano Member

    It is the same idea as taking care of a child. Where you do not own the child you are its care taker. You are responsible for its well being and as long as the level care is up to par someone cannot take a child away. Similar to an adoption where you choose to take care of a child, as a pet owner you opt in to take care of your animals. The difference is that animals don't eventually develop to a point where they can become sovereign in our anthropocentric society.
     
  15. MorganLeFay

    MorganLeFay Elite Member

    You're absolutely right. Awareness and compassion are keys to everything. But then again there will always be people who know better...
     
  16. EriksExotics

    EriksExotics Elite Member

    You support animal abusers. You're absolutely right that I will not try and see things from your perspective.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2014
  17. EriksExotics

    EriksExotics Elite Member

    Like PETA killing and dumping dead animals?

    I'm really not looking for an arguement here but there's a lot of contradiction and invalid argument in this thread. I started it in hopes of us coming together to share this and separate fact from misinformation that's creating fear within our cities, states, and countries. If we all decide to argue with each other instead of those who are trying to take away our rights to have pets than we're letting them win.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2014
  18. mshrmheadcharge

    mshrmheadcharge Moderator Staff Member Premium Member

    SnakeGuy, you are the only one arguing.... You stopped being relevant when you made your Hitler comment.
     
  19. Darkbird

    Darkbird Moderator Staff Member

    Sorry, but hoping the government will make a positive change is like hoping Charlie Sheen will become a born again Christian, just not gonna happen. It's because government is made up of people, with all the same faults and frailties as the rest of us, and a **** of a lot more in some cases. There's just no quick fix for this problem. The solution has to come from us and people like us, by our children and those who we can get through to. Then they pass this on to others and eventually those with respect outnumber those without. The only sure and quick way to get rid of the problem is to get rid of the humans.
     
  20. mshrmheadcharge

    mshrmheadcharge Moderator Staff Member Premium Member

    There need to be laws in place, to protect these animals. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but pet stores and breeders need to be regulated. It's ridiculous to think this would negatively impact you in any way, how could this be a bad thing? I disagree with banning snakes, saying they are dangerous, obviously you should be able to have a large snake, as long as you properly care for and handle it. Just with any animal in captivity, there's a chance of injury. But you're more likely to get mauled by a dog or rabid raccoon then killed by a constrictor.
    So banning doesn't seem to be the answer, but regulation needs to be considered.
    And darkbird, I do agree with you.
     

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