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Dumb questions...

Discussion in 'General Venomous' started by redgirl77, Apr 5, 2004.

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  1. redgirl77

    redgirl77 Elite Member

    Hognose snakes are treated as nonven right? What about other rear fanged snakes such as mangroves??? I just love the blue black and my states laws regarding herps is impossible to find. I was just curious. Also, is there an official site for CITIES?
  2. Fran

    Fran Veteran Member

  3. redgirl77

    redgirl77 Elite Member

    The link isn't working for me... :mad:

    Would you mind emailing it to me??? Thank you soooo much!!!!
  4. Jay DeMore

    Jay DeMore Elite Member

    I just type in new jersey division of fish and wildlife. It should give you the govt site and it's pretty informative.
  5. Fran

    Fran Veteran Member

    Here you go Red, try this.
  6. redgirl77

    redgirl77 Elite Member

    I've been to the sites for my state's government ( and South Carolina Dept of Natural Resources (which handles fish, game and wildlife) and couldn't find anything except a forum that makes my blood boil! I have even emailed the governer's office to try and get a point in the right direction. I heard that my state was looking at liscencing laws for large and hot herps, which I do support; however, I also heard that one of the liscence requirements is going to a be a Degree in Biology or Zoology!!! That's overkill in my opinion. I'm hoping to find info, not only so that I stay w/in legal limits, but also to try and get involved in the legislation issues regarding herps.

    Anyhow, thanks for the help!
  7. Jay DeMore

    Jay DeMore Elite Member

    Up here in Jersey you need a permit for everything. No degree necessary, just your checkbook.
  8. redgirl77

    redgirl77 Elite Member

    Yeah, I'm afraid that some of the people making these decisions are not really seeking the right information. I mean, seriously, if the public was going to be a part of the decision making process, then how come I can't find any info on it?!? It's aggrevating...

    Oh well, hopefully at least one of my emails will be answered soon!

    Thanks again for the help guys!
  9. Ace

    Ace Elite Member

    Good luck

    Red Good luck let us know if there is anything we can do to help you more! :) We all love Herps!
  10. Jay DeMore

    Jay DeMore Elite Member

    I just realized this thread was called dumb questions. As i am very fond of telling my 8 year old nephew. "There are no such things as dumb questions, except for those that go unasked."
  11. redgirl77

    redgirl77 Elite Member

    :rolleyes: Yeah, I know, I say the same thing to my 8 yr old son, but what can I say! I'm trying to scrounge up a few bucks to join our local herp society. If anyone knows, they will!
  12. KrokadilyanGuy3

    KrokadilyanGuy3 Elite Member

    Here is the link to CITES as you were asking. Ah, the world of complication.
    Just for clarification, hogs are not venomous, this is why they are not considered hots by F&G. However, many rear fangs are not considered dangerous to humans by standards, such as:
    Vine Snake, Thelotornis kirtlandii
    Hooded Malpolon, Malpolon moilensis
    Brown Tree Snake, Boiga irregularis
    bushsnakes, Philodryas olfersii, P psammophideus, P baroni, and so forth
    Vine snake, Ahaetulla nasutus
    False Water Cobra, Hydronastes gigas
    These are just a few animals that you can get which are not native to the US, there are many more as well as many rear fangs that are
    venomous living here in the states-Just to name a few.. Lyres, Tantillas, Ringnecks and so forth, all of which are obtainable. (Not sure aboout your particular state.)
    Finding a breeder, however may be a task..
  13. KrokadilyanGuy3

    KrokadilyanGuy3 Elite Member

    For the record, the hognose venom question is going on in another forum and Dr. Fry posted to one of my statements, now I still disagree due to the fact hognoses have not been worked by many people including Fry and the ones who have disclaims the venomous ideas. As for the colubrid venomyou will get a hint of, I disaprove of this as well as there are a lot of colubrids and most have not been worked with, certain animals doesn't just cut the idea for all to be venomous, not to mention colubids are still being thrown about with taxonomy so it's still a very touchy issue on that area. Either way, I figured you guys would like to read what was written by a Toxinologist since the idea has been brought up here several times. I am still disowning the idea until further studies are done with the particular animal.

    Fry- >Then you of course believe his, every colubridae is venomous?

    We've proven the single origin of snake venom (predating the major colubrid diversification) in this article:

    >As though I totally respect and admire a lot of his work,

    Thank you

    >I however disagree.

    Based on what evidence?

    >Everyone that I know who has worked and studied this species has not found any evidential trace of any vasoactive autopharmacologic compounds, that I am aware of.

    Absense of evidence is not the same as evidence of absense

    >In fact it's stated to be bacterial.

    Bacterial infections take days to show up, not minutes or hours. The bacterial red-herring is advocated by Kardong since he simply will not accept colubrids in fact possessing a true venom despite the evidence to the contrary. I'm not sure why but all it does is obscure the evolutionary history.

    >If the snake was truely venomous than it would take the same affect on each one of us.

    Not necessarily, particularly since the reactions to colubrid venoms will vary tremendously contingent upon the amount of venom actually delivered. This is the key, that the venom is delivered much slower and inefficient than say in an atractaspidid, elapid or viperid. Colubrids do not have stored venom as part of a high pressure system terminating in hypodermic needle like fangs. Rather, their venom is secreted as needed and delivered through a much less efficient manner (there are of course some notable exceptions to this such as Dispholidus, Philodryas, Rhabdophis). So, the colubrids are much less likely to envenomation which is one of the reasons their venom has gone overlooked for so long. It was assumed fangs preceeded venom rather than the other way around. Venom preceeding fangs makes perfect evolutionary sense since there cannot be a strong selection pressure for the evolution of advanced fangs in the absense of potent venom worth delivering. We have in fact shown that some of these snakes are in fact as potent as a death adder neurotox.pdf

    We haven't studied the hognose in detail yet but have analysed its venom by mass spec, with it being just as complex as the others.

    We will be doing the venom gland cDNA library after we finish the current lot.

    > Though, the 'venom' is said to be worked through the gums, like our saliva, this would be you would pretty much get the same reaction from anyone bitten and chewed on.

    It is very unlike our saliva which doesn't contain neurotoxins. However, we do have very dirty bites and the reactions produced to our saliva are due to bacteria. As everyone who's ever been around small kids (which seem to have a tendency to chomp on each other) knows, human bites can lead to some nasty infections a few days later.

    >Now amphibians, on the other hand, has had some fun times with these injections, however very few died and any reaction was recorded several hours after each bite. Not a very productive venom, even for it's native prey.

    The amphibians showing some sensitivity to the venom should be a nice clue that it is in fact a venom. The slow nature of the deaths may have to do with the composition of the injection rather than the venom itself. They may have pipetted more saliva than venom out of the mouth. Unless they milked the snake right and stimulated the gland properly, then the venom may have actually still been up in the gland.

    >Plus we all know how sensitive amphbians are.. I just can't buy the fact they are venomous, because if I did, I'd have to buy the fact all the colubrids are venomous, and if I did that I'd have to buy all things which produce an LD50 are venomous and if I did that what fun would it be in any of this?

    What you want and what nature is, are unfortunately two very different things in this case.

    > If hognoses are venomous, and he factuates his actual studies to it, then I will believe Hogs are truely an exception when it comes to venom..

    We have the mass spec results, showing a venom profile very similar to other venoms that we have already purified and sequenced toxins from. We even pulled out potent neurotoxins from the radiated ratsnake! In any case, we'll be sequencing toxins out of Heterodon in the next group of snakes. Hognosed being venomous is consistent with the rule rather than them being an exception.

    >Heck, even gilas and beadeds follow the delivery system rule..

    Heterodon have a delivery system (better than many other colubrids actually), their rearfangs aren't actually so far back once the maxillary bone is rotated. There is no way these fangs are for popping toads. Anyone who's ever tried to kill a cane toad in Australia knows they don't pop .......... unless you catch them properly with the tyre.

    One thing that needs to be stressed is that there is a huge difference between colubrids all being venomous and the relative danger posed. Hognosed snakes for example while venomous are extremely unlikely to be able to produce a bite of any clinical consequence, let alone life-threatening. Most colubrids are technically venomous but for practical (ie. legislative) purposes, the majority should be considered harmless. This is because while the venoms are typically very potent, they are usually produced in small quantities (sublethal even if the full shot is gotten in) and the delivery mechanism is not as rapid as that of an atractaspidid, elapid or viperid. They are able to deliver enough venom to settle down their prey item, which is the entire point of having venom.

    However, at least one member of each of the major families has produced some nasty clinical effects:

    Homalopsidae: Enhydris have caused bleeding problems
    Xenodontidae: Philodryas are lethal
    Colubridae: Dispholidus and Thelatornis are lethal
    Natricidae: Rhabdophis have killed people and are the poster child for why we need to find out which are dangerous and which are trivial. They were sold on the pet trade as brightly coloured Asian garter snakes until they caused some kids in the US to bleed out of every orifice.
    Pseudoxyrhophiidae: Madagascarophis are anecdotally reported as having a nasty bite
    Psammophiidae: Malpolon, Psammophis and Rhamphiophis have all caused bites producing neurotoxic and hemorrhagic effects

    We've been playing around with the antivenoms and so far none of the existing ones have been able to touch the venoms. This reinforces the point that while they are less likely to get you with a good bite, if they do you are screwed.

    If you map the species above (which noone will disagree with as being truly venomous) over the taxonomical tree, you will notice that they do not form one tidy little group but rather are scattered over the full bredth of the tree. To account for your theory of not all colubrids being venomous, this would necessitate multiple independent evolutions of venom. The above list, however, is very much not an exhaustive link of colubrid type snakes that have caused clinically significant envenomations and therefore we'd have to have venom evolved on even more occassions. Hardly a parsimonious explanation. Particularly in light of the demonstrated homology of the venom glands (the term Duvernoy's gland has been abandoned as it is the same gland), demonstrated through comparative morphology and embryology and the homology of toxins not only shared between viperids and elapids but also the demonstrated homology of colubrid toxins e.g.

    So, at the end of the day what has emerged from the results is that snakes are even cooler than we thought they were and that evolution never ceases to amaze. Its fun stuff indeed to be playing with.


  14. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Thanks Zane! Very interesting stuff! Just goes to show that in this wonderful weirdness we call herp keeping, on some topics, even the learned experts agree to disagree!
  15. Jay DeMore

    Jay DeMore Elite Member

    That is some good info, I still won't be telling anyone my hoggies are venomous though.
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