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Different sizes in sibling corns.

Discussion in 'Corn Snakes' started by royalbabylover, Aug 17, 2007.

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  1. royalbabylover

    royalbabylover Elite Member

    These my two amel cornsnakes, Edna and Lilo, They were both hatched on the 17th May 2006.
    Lilo was slow starter so therefore is a lot smaller than Edna.
    Edna is in eccess of 3' and weighs around 290grms.
    Lilo is about 27" and weighs only 105grms.
    Not very good photo's but I think it shows the difference in size??

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    RBL
     
  2. titus

    titus Elite Member Premium Member

    It's not uncommon. I have 5 2006 corns right now and two are much lager than the others, growth rates can very as much as the end size of corns. Feeding can play a part sometimes I also notic that my males grow somewhat faster. Also from what I can see you have actually a Creamsicle Corn, an intergrade thats bred from a P. guttaus x P. emoryi (P.emoryi used to be known as a subspp. of Guttaus).

    You can mostlikely expect then to be on the larger side of cornsnakes due to the P. emoryi blood. All in all there's no reason to worry, You have very nice and heathy looking corns. Keep up the good work.
     
  3. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    And with the variety of genetic material found in corns there is plenty of room for size differences anyways. Just like humans not all siblings will grow at the same rate or be the same size.
    I remember seeing a picture of two sibling burmese pythons that were on the same temperature, feeding, schedule, etc. One was half the length of the other!.
     
  4. Rich

    Rich Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Hello,

    I was also going to comment on the snakes genetics in reference to its size. Don't be surprised if in the long run, the smaller of the 2 catches up or even surpasses the larger one.

    Your example is exactly why it is almost impossible to determine the age of a reptile based on its size. Thanks for sharing!
     
  5. royalbabylover

    royalbabylover Elite Member

    Thanks for your replies.
    I just wondered if they would end up the same size, more or less.

    So do you think just the one is a hybrid or both of them??
    They are actually amel corns, there is no rat in them, they come from a very well respected and well known UK breeder. He has bred corns for over 30years. I can refer back to him and find out what their parents actually were but I'm sure it was a classic (carolina) male in excess of 6ft in length and an amel female around 5ft in length.

    Here is a pic of an amel hatchling to compare them to.

    [​IMG]


    RBL
     
  6. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    You never can tell what is going to happen, even with the same genetics. They could end up being the same size, or one could be larger than the other. And the size difference could go either way.
     
  7. royalbabylover

    royalbabylover Elite Member

    Thanks merlin,

    titus has suggested that they may be hybrids, which I'm convinced they're not, the breeder wouldn't risk his reputation.

    I am now curious as to how you can tell the difference between 'true amel corns' and 'creamsicle hybrids'??
    Are there any 'markers' that I could look for.
    I trust the breeder implicitly but I will be contacting him again on Monday to make sure of their parents.

    I've looked at pics of both and my two indeed look like some of the creamsicles but also like some of the amels!!!!!!

    RBL
     
  8. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Since the creamsicle morph would be worth more than the basic Amel it would be a pretty good assumption that the breeder would tell you and charge accordingly.
    And if he is as conscientious as you say he would tell you that the snake was a hybrid.
     
  9. a_god_s

    a_god_s Member

    I think I see black on both of them. I don't think they are creamsicles.
    This is my cream. It looks different than yours. [​IMG]

    Good looking snakes
     
  10. titus

    titus Elite Member Premium Member

    I would put my money that they are both 100% Creamsicle corns, a P. Guttatus Guttatus Amel should show mostly red tones on white. As per the photos provided yours show Orange tones on white, also with age creamsicles also show fading of the saddles, this is very apparent in your photos.

    In response to what the breeder stated some feel that P. Emoryi is still a sub spp. of P. Guttatus. Recent genetic testing has proven that their are substancal differences in the two moving P. Guttatus Emoryi to be it's own Spp. Though most don't think of this as a hybred but a interbred, as they are so closly related and even whats known as pure can have a shady past.

    It's not a bad thing that they're creamsicles though most breeders keep thier emoryi bood corns from breeding into their Guttatus lines for the sake of Amels and other Guttaus morphs, but breeding in emoryi lines has also produced some nice morphs. It's just right to let the people who buy from you know that the snakes are from emoryi lines.
     
  11. royalbabylover

    royalbabylover Elite Member

    Hi,

    I got in touch with the breeder and this is his reply. I had got the parents wrong but as he says they are both 'pure corns'.
    Here is a copy of his reply.

    Hi Saxon.
    I know them two

    There dad is an old "straw" type caramel, very old guy.
    Sure he had some great genes in him, which you could tell from the quality of the hatchlings he sired. I put him to several females in 2006 and got some really interesting looking hatchlings

    Ther mam is an amel called "Fats amel (K) " ( don't ask about the name)
    Some people say she is a reverse Okeette.

    Both are pure corns.

    A you say you wanted Creamsicles and I did not have any so selected you two amels that looked a bit like creamsicles. They have changed quite a bit since you took them. Both look like they are doing well especially as they are last years hatchlings.

    It is very hard to tell some creamsicles from a pure corns, but in most cases I tell from feel. Snakes with Great Plains in then have a harder feel than corns. There can be differance in body shape and head shape too. But don't forget Ceamsicles are part corn anyway so the more corn in the mix the harder it is to tell.

    Stephen


    As they are not 'aged' would the fading come into play?? These two were hatched 17th May 2006.

    How much in the US do amels and creamsicles sell for?? I paid very little for either of these.
     
  12. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    An amel will sell at shows or from a breeder for about 20-25 dollars. The creamsicle would be double that cost.
    If purchased in a pet shop, both prices would be considerably higher.
     
  13. royalbabylover

    royalbabylover Elite Member

    Crikey that's way cheap.

    We pay 20GBP for an amel hatchling and around £50 for creamsicle hatchlings.

    I didn't pay these prices but that's because I know the breeder quite well now as I've bought afew form him.
     
  14. titus

    titus Elite Member Premium Member

    If thats the reply of the breeder than their the strangeist pure corns I've seen, but to each their own. It's had to say any way without knowing the backgound of each snake. Here amels sell for about 15-25 Euro and Creamsicles are not much more about 35 eruo. As far as fading it's not the color fading but the white areas in the saddles (sometimes refered to as frosting) thats allways present in rat corn crosses. So I'll end this all on this note.

    Amel corn
    [​IMG]

    Creamsicle corn
    [​IMG]

    Both snakes are from my breeding from 2006.
     
  15. chris7033

    chris7033 Elite Member

    £50 for an creamsicle is a scam IMO.. i see them for around £30 all the time from a breeders any how
     
  16. royalbabylover

    royalbabylover Elite Member

    Sorry that was the price for a 'snow cream' or a 'butter cream'.

    I was offered an '06 butter cream for £60.

    I can't find any 'creamsicles' for sale anywhere. Not hatchlings anyway.
    I have been offered a few '06/'05's and an '03. Which were very cheap.
     
  17. JMM

    JMM Elite Member

    Prices are different around the world...here in Portugal you pay 50-65 euros for a normal corn. Mainly because the market is very very small.
     
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