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Debate... CB Vs WC

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by fire2225ems, Sep 15, 2008.

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  1. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Elite Member

    If we are dismissing survivorship as an indicator of "good", how then is nature better? I do agree that nature has an intrinsic tranquility that we can never hope to mimic, but I think a strictly idealistic approach to this question misses the vast majority of its point.

    As far as the hypocrite comment: if nobody is willing to actually read the context of its original use in this discussion then please don’t bring it up. IF you feel the need to come out and say "well if you think I am then that's your opinion", or any rendition of that statement, then you did not understand its context. There is a certain intrinsic irony in any one of us saying that it is wrong to harvest animals, i.e. none of us would have our own beloved pets if everyone on earth shared that point. Furthermore, irony and hypocrisy often go hand in hand. That's all that was said. To be blunt, nobody here has been called a hypocrite yet, so these vindicating self-affirming remarks on the subject really aren't helping anything.

    I also agree with Ryan. The act of keeping an animal caged, for any reason, regardless of circumstance, has a degree of selfishness to it. Aside from those of us who have rescued animals from bad owners, not many of us has gone into the pet store, looked at one of the animals and felt compelled to take the animal home for its own benefit. More likely, we go in, see a beautiful creature, impressive specimen, freaking awesome slither-dude, whatever, and say to ourselves, "self, I want to bring that animal home to my house and keep it as my pet. I realize that "selfish" has the same connotations and stigma as "hypocrite" but every one of us contains these traits to varying degrees, and we all express them to some degree by the very nature of human interaction. It's not to be taken as offensive. But it is what it is.

    Let’s get more hypothetical. We cannot seem to agree on how much of a degree the circumstance of a snake’s birth affects it. What about the eggs? Who are we to decide for these animals that they are to be born into captivity? IF we cannot hope to compete with nature (which btw, I still think is debatable) then why don't we rebury our eggs in their natural habitat? Aside from crocodilians’, very few herps have any interaction with their parents once born or hatched. Hatchlings can take quite a while to adjust even when born in captivity. If we cannot morally justify the stress on an animal caught in the wild, how do we morally justify the stress on a hatchling? Wouldn't it then be better to just release them neonatal?

    I don't think so. Just like I don't think the stress on a wild animal is something to pull out your hair over. He may be a little snappy now, but he will be fine, and in the exact same state as every one of our CB pets before long (And honestly, with the very rudimentary CNS that most reptiles have, probably no more the wiser). Obviously CB is better. If given the chance I will always buy a captive bred snake before trying to tame a wild one.

    This discussion, for a long time, has had an element that has just made things difficult. These animals are not even a fraction as sophisticated as we make them out to be. I before used the example of my girlfriend who tells me her Gecko is mad at her. How does she know? He's in his hide.... where he spends 90% of his time anyway.... Gun to my head, I don't think I could ever find any evidence that these animals are even capable of longing, which is a necessary emotion if one is going to make the moral argument with captivity. Can a snake really remember slithering through the open fields, wind through his scales, without "the man" keeping him down? Maybe for a little bit, but I don't think we will ever see any of our pets gazing out the window and wishing "if only".

    You have to go quite a ways up the evolutionary ladder before most experts even agree that we find simple emotions like sadness. There is only a single species on earth that can be definitively said to express altruism.

    Why is this all relevant? The arguments we make are based on personified qualities that don’t necessarily exist. If you choose not only to NOT take wild animals, but to openly oppose it, which is your choice. But the reality is that you do it for yourself. You leave nature as it is because that is what fits right into your own worldview. As said above, we take endangered animals in all the time, but how can we justify this since we can never hope to be as good as nature? We do it on survivorship, (so that argument, regardless of who here agrees or disagrees, must have SOME merit), and we do it often with animals that not only have much more developed brains, but also the ability to adapt back to a wild lifestyle. Whatever your stance, you do it because of what feels right to you, not the animal. In my opinion, there is going to be a lot of stress in his life no matter where he is. I don't know if anyone here can really say which is the lesser of two evils.
  2. ryanpb

    ryanpb Elite Member

    I disagree, I definitely called myself a hypocrite.
  3. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Elite Member

    You're right.... I forgot about that. lol
  4. wgnelson

    wgnelson Elite Member

    To specter; You have said everything that needed to be said in your second to last post, and you have said it exceedingly well. Perfect, my hat,(cover) is off to you! Have a great day, and a better tomorrow. Semper fi
  5. titus

    titus Elite Member Premium Member

    That was a lot to take in, I agree to the most part of what has been said.

    Point one is that their is a need for wild caught to introduce new species and blood lines. Though I do not agree with the condtions from most importers. So long it is done in a legal manner, I accept it.

    For most species captive bred is fine, Cornsnakes, Veilds, Leos. The breeding numbers of these species and availability squashes the need for wild collection. Breeders of Ball pythons can not keep up with the demand of these animals. Thus animals are still being imported to this day.

    Now a statement that may ruffle some feathers. So with all these imports of animals that we have been breeding for years. Where do they go, simple they become pets very few are kept by breeders to add bloodlines to current stock. So is it right to keep a imported animal and not breed them. Remember that everyone in the hobby has a responsiblity to move the hobby forward. To conserve the animals as found in the wild (not hybrid) and stop the need of wild collection, improve keeping methods, and our understanding of the animals. Please understand that I have no problem with a person that just wants a pet herp, but I do think that it should be a common available captive bred one.
  6. kriminaal

    kriminaal HH Block Leader Staff Member Premium Member

    It is astounding how many Savannah monitors are still imported. They just aren't being properly looked after and often die before 2 yrs old.
    It's one of those species that their aren't many captive breeding projects.
    Why? Could be because people are still buying cheap imported animals.
    Often seen for $40 or cheaper.
    It's too expensive to breed Savs because of their requirements and then try and sell the hatchlings for around $40. They could try and charge $120 but few would see the need to purchase a CB specimen at 3 times the price.

    I think it would go a long way if individuals would understand the need to buy captive and turn down the cheap price on imports.
    If only they would understand that they are buying a reptile in far superior health.
  7. titus

    titus Elite Member Premium Member

    With Savs it's hard there are always people who will invest in breeding. I do know one person here that does breed them but he still can't ask more than what the pet stores are selling for people look at him like he's nuts if he does.

    Some do turn down the Imports, over here a farm ball python sells for about 75USD (50euro) a captive bred sells for about 180USD (120euro) from a store or about 25-35euro from the breeder. The problem is their is a demand for captive bred animals but retailers aren't willing to pay the breeders a fair price but sell captive bred animals for more and make more profit. Every time that I have been contacted by a retail interested in buing stock they quote me what they pay for their imported animals. For ball pythons this is as low as 10-15euro, I see lots of people selling reptiles privatly just so they can get 1/3rd of market value for them. This keeps more animals being imported so pet stores can keep stock the very rarely sells against the breeders low price. If pet stores want to charge more for captive breed animals they need to be willing to pay more to the breeders. One reason that I don't sell wholesale and don't think imports of even commonly bred animals are going away.
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