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Debate... CB Vs WC

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by fire2225ems, Sep 15, 2008.

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  1. bobberly1

    bobberly1 Elite Member

    I'm sorry but that's not necesarily true, Merlin. At least in my state, Massachusetts, only threatened or worse animals are protected from collection. I really don't see any moral problem with taking a few endemic specimens for personal enjoyment.
  2. Dominick

    Dominick Founding Member

    So true!

    Then they will all "Live long and prosper!" :)
  3. Ashuresque

    Ashuresque Elite Member

    If it's a well established species with a large breeding pool I really see no need for WC specimens, especially for the casual pet owner. Though without WC animals, there would be no CB... it has to start somewhere.
  4. fire2225ems

    fire2225ems Subscribed User Premium Member

    I don't think anyone yelled at you. We were just expressing OUR opinions. I would like to point out that I never kept wild caught animals. (unless you count the kitten that was found in a grocery sack that one of the neighborhood boys was about to run over with his bike ;) ). I always played with the snakes, lizards, and frogs I found outside, or occasionally when one got in the house it was my responsibility to get it out ;). We set up plenty of frog and toad homes but they were outside and generally something like a wood box with a little door cut out so that something could make it a home. So yes, I disagree with the statement that "everyone did it". I still don't understand the use of the word hypocrisy as it relates to this. Just because someone is a fan or even a keeper of herps doesn't mean that they should support the capture of wild animals.
  5. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Elite Member

    Dark link was a reference to the animal seeing his reflection in the glass (ethereal self). It was an attempt to keep it light hearted and goofy so nobody thinks im getting upset.... but i failed! :mad: ;)

    Can you point out where I preferentially tighten and loosen the scope? I feel like I'm just steering in directions that havent been completely explored, and ignoring some of those that have been discussed at length. A statement such as "we can never be better than nature" is excessively broad and can only be met with a specific case which is excessively narrow such as the odd colored bullfrog mentioned before and his newfound chances of not being lunch. We infer an aweful lot about what the animals themselves prefer and what they are "happy" with. I in no way suppose to turn any of you who would never take a wild animal, I really carry on only because at the end of the day people need to realize that the best ammunition for the argument of leaving OR taking a wild animal is a sort of "because it's what feels right to ME" kind of logic. And that sort of logic, well, just doesn't feel right to everyone. I'm personally OK with keeping wild caught animals assuming they can receive the proper care (ie, I would never keep an alligator snapper regardless of how cool they are just because I dont have the means to take care of a 30 pound turtle, even if he IS only 5oz right now), I also defended it just because most people here seem against it :)

    No harm no foul right?
    But back to the main point, I dont think i'm needlessly picking apart arguments. Any and all arguments posted have an element of nitpickyness to them. A debate such as this needs specific and narrow arguments. There are an infinite number of reasons not to take a wild animal, but for me, I only need 1 good one to justify it.
  6. schlegelbagel

    schlegelbagel Frog Lover Premium Member

    I never had any "in home" herps either. Well, I never had outside the home ones either, because the cats would catch them or drive them off. There aren't many garden herps in Western New York anyway. I did have a few fun friends when we went to the Adirondacks every summer.

    Think of it this way. If EVERYONE took one of every herp in nature home to keep as their own, there wouldn't be too many left.
  7. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Elite Member

    and FIRE, this is why i used the word hypocrisy :)
    and I know i wasnt yelled at..... you guys all seem to take everything posted quite literally...... nothing wrong with that, im just used to a more sarcastic crowd (remember, i said im an autoforumsuniverse moderator. car guys can be a pain in the.... neck....)
  8. Dominick

    Dominick Founding Member

    True enough!

    Were you ever on a debate team?
  9. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Elite Member

    Lol no. I think it stems from a few years of discussing cars with a much more belligerent and hostile crowd (I'm a GM driver on a ford site :)) Gimme some time.... I'll probably settle down some ;)
  10. Rich

    Rich Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    There are only certain species that are legal to take from the wild and you are limited to 2 of each species.

  11. schlegelbagel

    schlegelbagel Frog Lover Premium Member

    BAH. I'm a moderator over at I have learned there is a forum for somethings, and a forum for others. I leave my sarcasm at the door here, as well as the blatant bashing and rude comments. I try to keep it to reptiles and their care in a very G rated way. Just how it is here and how Rich wants it.
  12. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Elite Member

    I don't think I've posted any blatant bashing or rude comments..... :( A little off topic and random maybe, but rude?

    BTW, off topic again, do you run the tech sections over there, or are you more around to help keep the site moving, so to speak? You should come visit us at mustangforums and camaroforums.... but you are going to need thick skin for the OT sections lol :) Im a total gear head tho, so feel free to PM me about car anything (as im sure its probably not going to be recieved too well in the colubrid section or something)

    Ok, back to discussion.
  13. wgnelson

    wgnelson Elite Member

    This is one interesting debate? (I think interesting discussion from several different points of view is closer). We all have our own opinions, good or bad, right or wrong, sink or swim. I believe that all the opinions expressed in this 'debate' have merits on their own. It's how and why you believe in a certain mindset. It's how you were brought up to believe in something. Personally, I believe in the natural order of things. We are the upper echelon of the food chain. We have the ability to communicate with vast array of languages. The brain and the tongue work in unison. We have opposing thumbs! Survival of the fittest will always take it's toll on the animal kingdom. There are species of animals and plant life that are going to be extinct this year, and we, (humans) are not the cause of it! We have in the past, and I sincerely hope that lessons have been learned. [ie; passenger pigeons, dodo birds, etc. etc.] The Humpback whale is on the return, as is the Gray and Right whales. We can have animals around us, and enjoy them. Some need our protection and care, others are doing fine without us and will continue to do so. Let us enjoy the wildlife around us, and the wildlife in our care. It is not wrong for us to enjoy natures beauty, even if it is in our homes! Oh spectr, I'm sorry to see that you are a gm driver in a ford forum. I don't know how old you are or if you can remember the old ford muscle cars. I had a 68 ford torino fastback with a 390 under the hood pushing 345 hp out of the factory. It was a screamer!!!! I got it to about 160 and had to back down. I was nervous! Have a great day and a better tomorrow. Semper fi
  14. schlegelbagel

    schlegelbagel Frog Lover Premium Member

    Never said you did. But I can tell you do have that sort of OT thick skin that many people DO NOT have over here and don't get. It took me a while to ditch that. That sort of combative sense we seem to have over there.

    I'm the moderator in the girls forum, so I just keep things moving. And trust me, the celica OT is just as harsh as yours. Sorry, I have no interest in camero forms. I'm an import girl. ;)
  15. wgnelson

    wgnelson Elite Member

    To specter; sorry that I reversed the er for the re. I don't believe that any of your remarks were blatantly bashing, or rude. You do, however, get people to think about the subject at hand. The wording has 'pushed' the thought processes to where they need to be. You have thrown out a discussion point in a little bubble, and have watched it expand exponentially. This is a good thing. Everyone, I mean everyone involved in this discussion has really put out their thoughts and beliefs. Good job on your part, and to everyone else involved. Good night all! Semper fi
  16. ryanpb

    ryanpb Elite Member

    I Think that I'm going to wade into this Dissection? Debate? Dissection?

    First off, I'd like to start by saying that I did not read the thread that has been dubbed "this threads daddy-thread"

    I'm only responding to this thread, and my opinions therein.

    First off I'm not going to get into what herps anyone may, or may not have kept as a child, it's hardly fair to hold something against someone that they did as a young and naive child.

    What it comes down to, and how I see this,
    is that in the hands of a responsible keeper, there really isn't much of a difference (morally) between keeping a WC herp or a CB herp.

    You are still keeping an animal in, no matter what you want to call it, how big it is, or how many plants you've put in it, is essentially a cage.

    While CB animals are generally easier to take care of, fare better in captivity, are usualy more handleable, and don't disturb the "natural balance" they are still in a cage.

    It is then logical that any animals that can be successfully bred in captivity, should be bred in captivity, leaving more wild animals, to stay wild, until the time comes perhaps when more bloodlines are needed to prevent inbreeding.

    I prefer CB over WC everytime the option exists, but what about all the other species out there we can learn so much about, and from, that are not bred in captivity, or not common enough to be obtained, should we just ignore them.

    If that's the case, then what right do we have keeping any animals descended from wild caught animals, because somewhere along the line, All these animals we enjoy keeping, were wild.
    Without WC herps, Herptology wouldn't be very interesting...

    Think outside the box...

    If you were to take two people, one born in a cage, raised from birth in a cage, and who will inevitably die in a cage,
    and the other, born free, but captured, also placed in a cage, and likewise, will live out the rest of there days in a cage.

    I bet they're both pretty ticked off they're in a cage.
  17. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Elite Member

    Your later post was one of the best compliments I've been paid in awhile. However! I was ford.... 00 mustang GT... :confused: I was wrecked in an accident that we ALL are lucky that I survived, and the insurance money paid for a 98 Trans Am which made 331rwhp from the factory (i can pm you the scans if you really want). Currenly with full drag suspension, a TSP cam/supporings, and boltons. It's in a shop right now getting a new clutch and a 9" rear end. with the 125 shot of juice. 385rwhp and over 500 on spray! It will turn 10s (eat it torino;)) but thats not the purpose of this thread.

    Can I get an AMEN!???!

    its apparent.... you spelled it with an E :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

    It's like I ask and you deliver! Another way of putting it. Your gecko may not know the vast world around him, but he has seen through the glasswork the room he is in, and he knows its larger than his aquarium!

    You cannot stop ANYTHING from realizing he is captive, man or beast. So IMO every one of us is justifying captivity based on the care we can provide, which is the argument I was challenged with, told I was narrowing the scope of the discussion......

    Sorry I couldn't bring more substance.... it's late. And also, we're beginning to turn circles in this debate. I'm glad more people are speaking up however.
  18. kriminaal

    kriminaal HH Block Leader Staff Member Premium Member

    This is the category where I believe most people's beliefs will fall into. Unfortunately it's pure selfish motivation. But that would be saying that the keeping of any reptiles for personal enjoyment is wrong.
    Or maybe it's not as simple as black and white.
    Us being the stewards of the planet as stated by Dom. We're supposed to be looking after things. So if we hadn't screwed things up so bad in the past. Then maybe we should leave all the wildlife alone. Unfortunately though we must now meddle with nature to try and correct some issues.
    Are we making things better? Or worse? I think we have made strides to save some species.
    In order to learn more about them, some must be extracted from the wild to study. Some captive bred lines have undoubtedly spawned from those specimens.
    Just a bunch of IMO thoughts. As I believe I am a hypocrite in some ways. As keeping and breeding my herps is purely for my own personal enjoyment.

    Something I have thought I should be doing though is taking some money from breeding projects and donating to wildlife organizations. The ones doing all they can to save habitat and species in jeopardy.
    Then at least I can say my breeding projects help in part to save more endangered animals and their habitat.
  19. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    You misunderstood what I was saying.
    What I was referring to was the act of taking an animal into captivity, then later releasing it back into the wild population.
  20. fire2225ems

    fire2225ems Subscribed User Premium Member

    Ok, so because people took wild caught animals and bred them to get captive bred, we are saying that that means it is ok for ANY animal to be taken home out of the wild? If this is the case, then what the heck do we need wild caught for?

    I can IN SOME CASES see the argument for wild caught animals. I don't see it for just the average animal that you see out in your yard, but if it is being done for the protection of the animal or species, that I can understand. (ie Panda's being held for breeding programs). Why take something into your home and cage it when you can enjoy it just as much out in your yard, and it is actively part of the eco-system?

    I think the word Hypocrite is a strong word to use, and I don't like being called that. (and by saying that you think people who keep reptiles and don't believe in wild caught is hypocrisy, you are including me in that statement.) Just because someone in the past did something I agree with, doesn't mean I think it should continue. That is like saying that all the people who are still big time plantation owners down south are hypocrites. Most likely the only reason they were able to start their plantations is because they at one time had slaves (which at the time was thought to be ok) but now they don't have slaves, they have employees. But would they have the money that they have if they had to start it all on their own, or had to pay everyone that helped start it? Maybe, but probably not nearly as much. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but very much so dislike being called a hypocrite for mine.

    Yes, an animal in captivity will always know when it is in captivity. But, which is going to adapt to that, the animal that was born in captivity and all that they know is that they are safe in their little box, or the animal that was born with no boundaries and then all of a sudden stuck in that little box?

    This is where my psych class might be doing me more harm than good... Research suggests that when a baby is born it's environment is imprinted in their brain. They have found that this is more so with animals than with humans. What does this have to do with the captive bred vs wild caught... When a reptile is born in the wild, it is around it's clutch mates, and usually has exposure to other like its own. It has a vast world to explore, and learns to hunt on its own and to take care of itself, it will always be on alert because it is a dangerous world. A captive bred reptile is born and has a human immediately taking care of it, food, and a warm safe home that it doesn't feel threatened in. The captive bred reptile will feel safe with humans, trust the food source, and feel safe in its tank while maybe not so much when outside of it (depending on the exposure).

    There is also the nature vs nurture argument. What in a reptile's behavior is instinct rather than environmental? Now we know that ig's, whether CB or WC, are generally going to be very territorial. But will the CD one be more willing to accept a person as a part of its day to day life?

    Rich has brought up a good point in favor of wild caught. Introducing new animals into the bloodline to keep it healthy. This I can see, but strongly believe that it should be done by experts. Someone who can study the animal in question and its DNA, and know if it will be good for the bloodline, or if it's just going to add more genetic mutations that will be harmful for the species. And these scientists generally are able to keep the reptiles in such a way that once studied (with limited interaction) they are able to be re-released....

    I personally feel that CB animals should stay in captivity, and WC animals should be wild. We already have enough species where there are few to none in the wild, if we keep just taking every animal we see out of the wild and putting it in captivity, where is that gonna leave us in the future?
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