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Debate... CB Vs WC

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by fire2225ems, Sep 15, 2008.

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  1. fire2225ems

    fire2225ems Subscribed User Premium Member

    So. In light of a recent thread that got off topic, I figured I would throw this out there AGAIN. Keep in mind that this is a debate and nothing in this thread is meant personally. There will be NO bashing, just stating what your opinion is and the reasons behind it.

    What are your thoughts on Captive Bred vs Captive Born vs Wild Caught?
  2. schlegelbagel

    schlegelbagel Frog Lover Premium Member

    My problem is mostly with imported animals from other countries, ie the frogs I want to keep. I HATE wild caught when it comes to that situation. There is a large percentage of frogs that die in transport, not to mention habitat that could be ruined because of their removal. I don't believe there is a big regulation on the animals and how/where they were taken from.

    And this doubles in my book, for animals like something as common as a whites tree frog. Why put the animals through all that stress when we have the ability to breed them right here?

    I know as kids, many people would collect small snakes, toads, frogs, etc from the wild and parents would help raise them. I have no problem with this when the animals are not protected but ONLY if the animals are kept in the correct conditions.

    I however have a problem with people making a profit off local wild caught animals. I guess its just a moral thing in my book, kinda like eating veal.
  3. Rich

    Rich Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    I am not against Wild Caught or Captive Born, pending why and how it was done.

    There is a massive difference between taking a handful of animals from the wild and those that harvest them to sell cheap. I am 100% in support of small groups being collected. Specifically if those groups are to introduce new bloodlines into a genetic pool. This helps limit incestial breeding and helps promote and develop new mutations/morphs.

    On the other hand, I do not and will not go outside and remove a local species from its habitat with the intent on keeping it. My interest in this hobby pertains to species that are "exotic". My local species I can see just by looking for them.

    I am one of those people who sits on the fence and argues both sides. lol I condone certain aspects of WC/CB collecting and not others.

    I am 100% for captive breeding and buying though.

    (I like veal.)
  4. kriminaal

    kriminaal HH Block Leader Staff Member Premium Member

    There are so many different aspects to this argument it's hard to narrow them down into a paragraph.

    But in the end I find it's wrong to take any animal out of it's natural habitat. Any reasoning beyond this is selfish.
    Having said that there are instances where it's done to save a species. Of course only attempted by professional institutions.
    Private hobbyists cannot save a species or even help to increase the population.
    We may breed them in captivity to increase the numbers, but we cannot help the wild populations. Perhaps to increase the captive availability as to starve out the need for WC.
  5. schlegelbagel

    schlegelbagel Frog Lover Premium Member

    What about an individual animal that is ill or odd? IE there is a girl around here sometimes who has a very light blue bullfrog. Its odd colors don't allow for camouflage. It was also pretty ill when she caught it. She took it to the vet, gave it antibiotics and healed it up. She knew because of its colorings, it would be lunch rather soon, so she set up a huge 110 gallon enclosure for it.

    Is it selfish to want to help an individual animal? Should she have released it after she healed it up? I don't know.
  6. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Elite Member

    Given the amount of posts that I agree with on here. It's surprising how the other thread went awry. ;)
  7. kriminaal

    kriminaal HH Block Leader Staff Member Premium Member

    I think it should be released back where she found it. I think she did the right thing in helping it.
  8. fire2225ems

    fire2225ems Subscribed User Premium Member

    I think the issue with the other thread was that it was a slow weekend for people posting on the forum AND the title of the thread was about caresheets, this is more on topic. Part of the reason I wanted to start this in it's own thread was to get more participation from everyone. I know that not everyone has the same views... I do plan on putting my position out there once I have time to actually sit down and type it out. For now it's back to the books (at least until I have to go take this tests...)
  9. Dominick

    Dominick Founding Member

    I agree also. She did a nice thing in helping to heal it, but it belongs where she found it and no where else.

    When we humans intervene in the natural order of things, the effects can be devastating. Any intervention on the part of humans should only be done to correct what we have messed up in the first place.

    Wild caught creatures should be marveled at and returned to the wild. If they are sick, heal them and return them. It's how we stay good stewards of the earth.

    For our own selfish desires, captive bred/born is best.

    I like veal too.
  10. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Looking at it from a strictly legal standpoint, it is ILLEGAL in most places to take an animal out of the wild, confine it, then release it back into the wild, even if it is a native species! In some places if you even touch the animal you cannot release it.

    I personally see nothing wrong with keeping a wild caught animal if you have the ability and knowledge to care for it correctly. Most of us got started that way, and to be honest there are a lot of very interesting animals which, for whatever reason, just are not available from breeders. Maybe they lack flashy colors or behavior that is interesting to the casual keepers. Breeders are in it for profit and if there is not a demand for a species they won't bother to breed them. Thats why there is such a large number of breeders working with morphs but comparatively not that many dealing with normal garden variety animals. It's flash that sells!

    And lets be real. Every single animal that anyone of us keeps is the descendant of a wild caught animal! They ALL started out that way!

    As long as the animals are not an endangered or otherwise prohibited species I see no reason not to keep one. If I came across an animal that interested me, assuming that it was not a rare or protected species I would not have a second thought about collecting it.

    I do believe that newly beginning keepers should stick to captive bred animals. This eliminates their having to deal with a number of issues such as trying to get animals to accept food items that they don't even recognize as food. Also the fact that captive bred animals are not carrying a load of internal and external parasites and since they have been around humans ever since they were born, are calmer and not as fearful.

    I will say that I am NOT in favor of the people who go out and collect massive quantities of animals to sell for profit. Thats the way many species have been depleted.

    However there is also a flip side to that argument.

    Wild caught, imported exotics do have a positive side. I agree that the conditions in which many wild caught exotics are collected and kept are atrocious. That SERIOUSLY needs to be addressed by the pet industry!

    But consider,...

    People need to make a living and to provide for their families.
    Sure its easy enough for us to say,...they shouldn't do that.
    We are sitting safe and snug at home. We aren't standing in a wobbly canoe, our stomach cramping, trying to catch enough food to feed our children.
    A major problem in conservation is the depletion of habitat. But consider that having a market for wild caught herps can provide them with an income. Which in turn will give THEM a reason to keep the natural habitat intact and in its natural form. If they destroy the habitat there are no more animals to harvest!
    The game is over and they are back to square one.
  11. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Elite Member

    I said the exact same thing in this threads daddy-thread and got yelled at for using the word "hypocrisy" :(
  12. untsmurf

    untsmurf Elite Member

    I understand the reasoning behind bringing in WC animals. Whether it's for breeding purposes or to heal sick animals. But I personally don't agree with it. The only exception in my mind is if the sick animal is endangered or about to go into extinction. Then, I believe the right people should heal the sick animal, or bring back the species. Other than that (I know this sounds cold) but I believe all wild animals should be left alone. Even if they're sick and/or are dying. Death and disease is a natural part of life and if we rehabilitate every sick animal, I believe we're going against nature. Some things aren't meant to live very long. So unless humanity has caused the dwindling numbers of a species, I say leave them be. Study from afar, put on trackers, swim with the sharks, whatever, but leave them where you found them. And while my heart breaks watching a wild animal die, all I'll do is give it a proper burial.

    I wish that more people went to adoption centers for all kinds of animals, fuzzy and herps alike. There are so many animals that need good homes. Instead of letting your heart bleed over this little precious animal you found, go to an adoption center and save someone there. There are so many people who think they're doing an animal a favor by bringing it in to our world and housing it themselves. But the fact is, we'll never be as good as nature. No matter how pretty and diverse our enclosures, they're still enclosures. And I know it's not true for most animals, but I fear that I'm taking an animal away from it's home and family, therefore breaking its heart. That's what keeps me from pulling animals out of the wild, even sick ones.
  13. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Elite Member

    That depends on your definition.

    What do you think the survival rate is to adulthood for young herps in the wild? I have no hard statistics, but I have yet to hear of any figure that is anywhere near what I would call "good". Now go ask a few breeders here what their survival rates are.
  14. schlegelbagel

    schlegelbagel Frog Lover Premium Member

    I don't think he is referring to the fact that they have a healthier and more controlled diet and conditions. That's not an argument. I think he is commenting on the 4 glass walls that hold them in vs. the giant lake you plucked them out of.

    Just because they are surviving longer, doesn't mean they wouldn't be happier outside in a big world without walls. It's kinda like I would rather live my life to the fullest and only live 50 years, than be bored and cooped up for 100.
  15. Dominick

    Dominick Founding Member

    You are taking a sentence out of context and making an argument. That was not the spirit of the response. The response was concerning taking an animal out of the wild and trying to replicate the environment. Hence, we cannot 'be as good as nature'.

    Please don't pick apart an argument for the sake of making a new argument. I enjoy reading your responses much more that way.

    I wonder, when breeders kill off undesirable new specimens or throw them in the dumpster after they failed to sell at a show, is that calculated into the survival rate? Are they still considered 'better than nature'? ;)
  16. SpecterGT260

    SpecterGT260 Elite Member

    But it doesn’t mean they WOULD be happier in that pond either. Fear of predation, uncomforted from parasites, and constant threat of disease don’t make me happy.

    I was simply playing devil's advocate. we cannot presume to know the mind of these reptiles, since most of them lack the proper central nervous system to really even be self aware.... were basically dealing with dynamic robots who adjust responses based on instinct and conditioning, and who feel that chilling under a rock for a few days with no real activity is just as fun as anybody else’s plan.

    But again, I say it’s dependent upon your definition of "good". In this forum we recommend that owners match enclosure size to the size of their pets. "a small snake will feel more secure in a small enclosure" we go further "enclosures that are too large will make the animal feel stressed" (these are all statements made on these very boards), "it's better to buy larger tanks as the animal grows rather than buying the max size right away". I even heard one person say (and I apologize if you are reading, no offense) "studies have shown animals have their surroundings imprinted on them at birth, captive bread KNOW they should be in a cage, and wild born KNOW they should have expansive surroundings” that notion is entirely ridiculous. It’s actually contrary to almost every developmental and conditional study ever done. I would venture a guess that all herps know they should be in open spaces, even your own beloved pets. To borrow a line from Merlin, don’t believe me? Leave your tank open for 24 hours and then come back and see how many were too stressed to leave the security of their small glass home. (Ok, I modified your line a little bit merely, my bad :))

    But back on track: we want to draw a comparison between captivity and the wild, well why do we recommend smaller enclosures when the wild argument is that they have infinite space to roam? Once again I fall back to my own definition of "good". I can keep this animal alive AND, dare I say, happy. Especially if the animal is captured when very young (the topic of this threads precursor). I can see leaving an established adult alone. His chances for survival have plateau, and he probably will not be a happy camper if handled. But a baby! Statistics say that it’s not a baby turtle or snake, but a ham sandwich in disguise. Also, his temperament should be much more malleable than an adult. The perfect candidate to stick into this glass enclosure and call it "good".

    I do apologize if I went on tangents there...... my dad called mid post and I lost track of where I was :)

    I wasn't trying to split hairs, I didn't think I was too far out of context. Just because it seems tangential is not a reason to disregard it all together. Health of the animal has every right to be discussed in this thread along with any other more sentimental arguments. IMO survivorship is the most concrete things weve discussed thus far. Everything else is highly subjective.

    But why should we call nature better? Because the plants all die in the winter and the animal can move more than 3 feet before being confronted with an ethereal version of themselves? I hated fighting dark Link (for u zelda fans ;)) but I don't see this as a reason to just fall back to nature. This is what the debate is all about isn't it? The insinuation in the original statement is that the animals are happier. I dont know that anyone can honestly know if that is true or not. If so, why dont we all release our animals?

    As far as ur last statement... um..... eh :(
    I don't know many breeders. Those that i know will sell their undesirables (which are usually just wild type) at cheaper costs. I also don't go to many conventions (although I wish I did). I guess there is just a special place reserved in **** for someone who kills animals that dont sell.

    But I think if we actually crunched the numbers we'd see that overall survivalship is still better than wild. Most reptile's adulthood chances are below 5%, or at least animal planet seems to think so :)

    And in a micro scale, for ONE animal, the theoretical wild caught animal at the head of this thread, survivalship will increase if caught by a responsible and experienced herper. I feel confident enough with that statement.
  17. Dominick

    Dominick Founding Member

    No, it's not a reason at all. Zelda and fighting Dark Link have nothing to do with this debate. A little too tangential for me. ;)

    And, I HAVE been at many shows and have seen countless creatures dumped at the end of the show, either on the floor or in boxes in the dumpster. There are people who stay for the break down of the show just to collect all the "free" creatures that are left behind. It happens more than you could ever imagine. So, we will never be better than nature for any creature we haven't already screwed up.

    BTW, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. Just trying to keep the debate clean. You seem to want to tighten the scope in some places and then broaden it in others. And you have the Devil's Advocate role down pat. Somehow I think people stop reading it after a while, which offers no value whatsoever to the forum.

  18. wgnelson

    wgnelson Elite Member

    This is going to be a debate that will continue ........... after we have done our thing and have gone bye bye. As many of you have already stated, there are important points on both sides of the argument. When we were kids ourselves, did we not find a green garden snake, toad, or frog? Yes we did, and we brought them home for a pet! (My mother wasn't too thrilled to have a 3' garter snake sharing the same house with her)! We had our 'fun' with the new pets, and we either let them go from parental persuasion or maybe we did realize that the animal was better off in the wild. After all, we caught them while they were alive, so there is no reason why they won't still be alive after we let them go. I have had my share of 'pets' brought home. Most lived way beyond my expectations. My parents made sure that I did my 'homework' to ensure that they lived. If not, they were returned to where they were caught. If a certain species catches our eye and we like the looks, why not have it? If that certain species is in dire need of protection, then we may not. We leave that to the professionals to ensure that species survival.(ie; blandings turtle, Ivory billed woodpecker, Spotted salamanders, etc. etc.etc.) We enjoy the animals that we keep as pets. We take care of them. We ensure their survival under our care. If you are operating substandard breeding farms, hatcheries, puppy mills, etc., then you should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.(plus a lot more in my mind!) You have a commitment to take care of that animal the best way you know how. If not, then find someone who can, or return it to the wild where you got it, bring it to a zoo, pet adoptions, somewhere that the animal can be taken care of properly. I'm sorry to ramble, I'll let someone else have a turn. Have a great day and a better tomorrow. Semper fi
  19. Dominick

    Dominick Founding Member

  20. wgnelson

    wgnelson Elite Member

    I had to add this one thought to my reply, sorry. Star Trek fans will remember this one, and it really works, Enforce the PRIME DIRECTIVE
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