At the risk of incurring more moral fury, I'd like to run a question by you guys. I had recently posted a lament at a male WD with clipped nuchal spines. Boy, this blows (Also, must this thing remove even mild profanities, even when quoted or in a humorous context? Gee, this may makes it difficult to communicate...)

Anyway here goes: I had observed that, in my experience, one rarely sees adult lizards in "perfect" condition. Often a missing tail tip here, a couple of spines or toes there; Yet, if our lizard(s) is 12 or 14 and happy and tame, we usually do not care (okay, present nutjob excepted ;-) I dunno, but we all heard of, seen or HAVE big, tame lizards that are housebroken, come when called, know their names--it's a lot of fun is it not?

I have kept :

Green water dragons
Aussie water dragons
A Green basilisk
A blue tongued skink (they like shoes)
Sudan plated lizard
A red tegu
White's tree frogs
Denny's flying frog

(And while I have not done it, I have seen or heard of it with water monitors, B & W tegus, iguanas, true chameleons and even cane toads!)


All loose--they learn where their water bowls are and that's that. But alas, that occasional moron walking through the house reading the paper, or the evil rocking chair....

Well, I find this rather curious: After all, there are countless dogs and cats in this age range, some with myriad health problems. But I very rarely see cats with stubby ears, or dogs with three missing toes, etc; Although one place that reptiles, even those with acrodont or thecodont dentition, seem to have on carnivorous mammals is teeth. Seen a lot more adult dogs and cats with bad teeth...

I ran this by Bert Langerwef (Agama International), and he actually suggested that this is why he does not tame his lizards! Taming removes the flight/fright response (especially the fear of objects passing over the head), and this is what makes the animal vulnerable. This would seem to make intuitive sense; we are talking about animals that do not raise themselves off the floor--so their tails and legs are vulnerable.

Well, is the occasional accident the price we pay if we wish to have tame reptiles? After all, these are tame wild animals and not domesticates. Yet some of us really don't have the room for pens. I really think though, that if an animal has made into his teens, free roaming is not really the problem--our behavior is.

Your thoughts?

I have a Bearded Dragon and 2 Leopard Geckos, none of them have any injuries or missing parts. I don't allow any of them to free roam the house nor do I do the same with my 4 boas (my dogs are 1 reason). All of them are "tame" i guess, but as wild animals you can never be sure. It would not bother me at all if any were missing spikes, tails, toes etc.....as long as they live a normal happy life. I love all reptiles,,,not just the good looking ones. I'm sure your question will get a mixed response. And the site filters language in any context, we strive hard to keep it clean and family friendly (my children are members).

best of luck

__________________
Ken
" The United States Marine Corps......sure we are a department of the Navy,,,,,,we're the MENS department "

I have to agree with Ken.. my iguana had a broken tail (grown back) he has lost 2 toes 1 and a half grown back and he is the coolest kat ever. Everyone looks and says " oh what a pretty iguana" the occasional what happend to his tail but no one cares..
I have found most herp owners form personal relationships with their animals and that is the most important thing to them. In my opinion(no scientific proof provided) taming has to be key in long term lifespan. Captivity would be too stressful mentally which would wear on them physically. not to mention I would hate cleaning the cage and feeding and basically doing anything with my iguana for 10-15 years if it tried to bite me or escape or tail whip me every single time I got close to it.

That's just my opinion
-brandon

Brandon makes an excellent point.
Taming to at least some extent will ease the stress of captivity.

I feel wild animals belong in the wild, yet I must respect other's right and inclination to entertain themselves by keeping captives.

In a number of cases, captivity has saved animals from extinction.
r

You know, I do agree with you guys about taming and stress. Concerning zoos, this has always been a sore point with me! You know, the "these are not pets, we do not handle them, play with them, give them names, etc; Yet they wonder why the animals are stressed when they have to be handled--for moves, examinations;

Even zoo specimens are not wild animals, and I bleive that tame animals are happier and clamer. I don't think I'll get too much of an argument here. However, let me point out that folks like Mr. langerwerf are not really "wrong;" his is a large scale breeding facility, and the animals are raised in big outdoor pens. I do not know that it would be fair to say that his water dragons are less "happy."

I bought a Giant Green Iguana 8 years ago.

He is now only a resemblance of a green iguana due to:

3 missing spikes due to leash training.
One amputated toe, due to an escape attempt (and the subsequent capture).
Damaged spikes on his tail, due to a fight with a Fire Truck tire.
A permanantly scarred nose, due to an incredibly fierce first heat.
And a small tear in his dewlap due to an argument with the backside of a washing machine.

But, to me, he'll always be that amazingly green and beautiful specimen I purchased so long ago.

BTW, I have seen many completely untamed iguanas, both in captivity and in the wild, who had a myriad of injuries.

Perhaps wanting the "perfect" specimen is more human nature than Mother nature?

__________________
Regards,
Dominick
_____________________________________________
"Do you watch too much television? Did you do so as a toddler? Evidence tonight that it could be the cause of learning disorders, like attention deficit and hyperact-Ooooh, a kitty!" - Keith Olbermann

A fight with a fire truck tire??? I just about spit out my coffee, lol. Too bad you dont have that on video

I take it he also lost the argument with the washing machine



Back to the point of this thread, I personally do not care if they are not perfect looking, My Grizzly is a rescue and his jaw is deformed from Metabolic Bone Disease and he is missing toes, spikes, part of his tail, and his nostrils are so small that I literally have to pick his nose to keep them open. Far from perfect but owns a huge spot in my heart