Ok so I took Oscar to the new vet, here is the interesting thing, as much as he preached about the Baytril being bad in torts, he kept him on it. He says instaed of doing the injections to give it to him in his piece of favorite fruit Antibiotics will naturally give them diahrrea in my experience, but add fruit to his diet and its an explosion! So as much as he preached to me that Baytril is deadly in torts he kept him on it, so confusing........ He found some old infection in his shell that he drilled out from the attack from the dog, before he got here. He also found hookworms and flukes and he says no sign of respitory infection. The infection was caught early and the antibiotics were given as a precaution. so heres the thing if the Baytril was sooooooo bad that he preached about why would he keep him on it?
His answer: I do not want the infection to build up a resistance against antibiotics so it is better to keep him on it.
I am allegic to penicillen, if I take it I have trouble breathing, itchy hives, etc. The docs answer for me is not to leave me on it in fear the infection will become drug resistant


So I am googling baytril in torts and I find that many many of them are prescribed Baytril, minus a few species that are sensitive to them. The only problem is that I am finding this info on other forums and not from actual vets. So I can state that Baytril is bad or good all day long but I am not a vet. I am so confused........... I will keep googling though and see if I can find anything else.

Hello,

Before anyone speculates about anything regarding this, lets wait and see if Dr. Maas joins the site and responds or contacts me to offer his rationalization of why he would state that Baytril causes kidney failure in torts and then decided to keep the tort on the Baytril.

I am also tossing out a few lines to some of my associates to find out what studies, if any, have been done to confirm it does indeed cause kidney failure in tortoises. I hadn't heard that (which isn't exceptionally odd as I have never owned a tort) but it does make me a tad curious to know more about this.

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Hello,

I have been fortunate today as I got to receive a ton of information from 2 different sources regarding this.

I want to start by saying that Dr.Maas seem to me, via our telephone conversation, a very intelligent and genuine doctor specializing in reptiles. "I" would go see him personally if I were in Nicoles locale.

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Understanding Baytril
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Baytril (Enrofloxacin) , like all drugs, has the potential to cause kidney failure/renal failure. In this day and age, any vet that is still prescribing Baytril for Respiratory Infections clearly needs to research the new drugs on the market. There is a drug that I have been made aware of that treats RI's as effectively, if not more effectively than Baytril, and carries a lower risk of kidney failure.

That drug is called Fortaz (Ceftazidime). Fortaz is commonly used now in place of Baytril. (The use of Baytril still has its place however.)

When taking these meds, as with most meds, injections are FAR more effective at treating the ailment than oral antibiotics. The reasoning is simple and fairly self explanatory. Injectable meds enter the blood stream immediately and completely saturate the problem almost instantly. Oral abx is MUCH less effective because with reptiles, the absorption process is VERY slow.

I have explained this because it pertains to the docs reasoning for keeping Oscar on the Baytril.

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Understanding The Docs Reasoning
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Dr.Maas ran tests on Oscar, as he should have. His result showed that the RI had been cleared. With that in mind, continuing treatment of injectable Baytril was no longer necessary. The primary infection that was being treated with the Baytril was already gone. So what he did was swap over to oral Baytril for (I believe) 5 days. This was done to ensure that any remnants that may still be around were eradicated, but it also has to do with HOW the Baytril is being administered. Since the tests were clean for the RI, the aggressive treatment using injections wasn't needed. Instead, the slow absorption of the med via oral conception was a better alternative. IF anything was around that pertained to the RI, the oral treatment would be more than sufficient at finishing it off.

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Why He Didn't Change Drugs
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His reasoning for not switching drugs was very simple. The RI wasn't there anymore.
Since Nicole was given such an aggressive treatment with the Baytril, switching to another injectable when the tests were clear wasn't required. IF he saw some remnants of the RI, he did state to me that he would have discontinued the injectable Baytril and switched to injectable Fortaz. (This was discussed before I had ever mentioned the Fortaz as an optional treatment.) Instead of switching drugs and treating something that appears to already be resolved, he opted to simply change how the Baytril was being administered and continue that treatment to kill anything that may be there still.

It was also noted, and makes sense, that using a drug such as Fortaz when it has nothing to attack allows the body to focus on attacking the drug itself. This of course leads to a far greater chance of the animal building a resistance to the drug. When there is an active infection, the body is naturally trying to defend itself by attacking the infection. It is working hard to fight the infection and that reduces the opportunity for it to hone in on attacking the drug. But when the body has nothing to keep it busy fighting, it has the chance to attack the foreign body (the drug) and thus build a resilience to it.

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Discussion With Bob Mac
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Most people know that Bob and I are friends. When I have a study question, I often go to him first because he will be able to lead me to the study or he will have read the study(ies) himself. I was curious about studies that had been conducted on torts and the use of Baytril. There were 2 that Bob had read and he enlightened me with some great info.

Bob also started off saying that all meds have the ability to cause kidney/renal failure. However, animals with healthy kidneys and who are being kept well/over hydrated during Baytril treatment are at FAR less risk. He also was the person who informed me of the Fortaz.

Can Baytril cause kidney failure: Bobs answer was "yes it can". He went on though to explain how every drug administered has this potential and then went on to explain that Fortaz was a better alternative than the Baytril for the RI.

The studies that were conducted were to determine the half life of Baytril in use with torts. The "half life" is how long it takes before half of the medication is gone from the animals system. This is important information to know because this helps determine how much of the drug is needed as a dosage. (Typically, the weight of measurement is .1 mil per pound of the reptile.)

Fortaz has a long half life, meaning it is more effective over a shorter period of time. Less treatments to the animal = less stress on the animal = BETTER DRUG.

Sorry for the long post. I wanted to share "some" of what I learned today. The fact that Dr.Maas called me back was fairly impressive in my opinion. He also gave me his email and asked that I stay in touch and offer any other questions I have to him for answering. (I have one I want to discuss with him pertaining to a study on Lidocain, but that's off this topic ....for now. lol)

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Just a note: I wanted to speak with Dr.Maas personally about this because HC is currently receiving OVER 15,000 UNIQUE visitors per day. It would be ashamed if a doc was discredited by a single post, so I wanted some clarity on this situation.

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Hello, all.

My name is Adolf Maas, and I am a veterinarian in the Seattle area and my practice is exclusively limited to exotic animals, with a research focus on reptile medicine and surgery.

I am the doctor that recently saw Oscar, and, first off, I want to apologize to his owner that it appears that I did not explain things clear enough. I strive to make certain that all owners understand as much as they can with every treatment, and it would appear that I failed, at least partially.

Please allow me to reiterate:
Oscar came to me after having been seen by another veterinarian for a "gurgly" breathing pattern. That vet interpreted it as a respiratory issue and dispensed injectable Baytril, and did nothing else. Oscar's mom called me after he appeared to have a bad reaction to the injection (we also are the only 24-hour emergency center for exotic animals in western Washington) and we discussed treatment, then set up an appointment.

On examination, there was no longer any signs of respiratory disease, but he had profound diarrhea/malodorous stools and several areas of long-standing shell infection. The infected shell was debrided and a fecal analysis was found (results were posted earlier by mom) and treatment was initiated for both these problems.

I advised Mom to continue the baytril, but instead of continuing it as injections, to use it orally and for less time. This was for multiple reasons:
1) I don't know exactly what the other vet saw regarding respiratory disease, but it was now gone. I don't know if it treated it, or if the problem would have gone away on its own, but changing abx when treatment is working is only asking for the generation of drug-resistant bacterial. Not a good thing.
2) Oral Baytril is absorbed less completely and more slowly, therefore less likely to create problems. The shorter course of time the meds are used will also be beneficial, since there is already a response, but still matching to the minimum recommended course of therapy (7 days, total).
3) I also advised Mom to soak Oscar daily, to promote good kidney function and disallow the drug to become concentrated in the renal tissue. This is the single-most important step to prevent renal damage.

I simply operate on one premise- I treat all animals that come in no different than if it was my own pet. I am always disturbed by vets that treat reptiles as "second class citizens", as seen by a lack of follow-through, diagnostics and then appropriate treatment. No vet in the world would ever treat a dog or cat the way they regularly treat reptiles; it would be malpractice.

Baytril is a "four-letter-word" to me when used in reptiles, and I rarely pick it, and only when it is the best choice for the situation/disease. I can't remember when the last time I sent home injections of it... There are so many other safe alternatives, such as Fortaz, Zosyn, Unasyn, and so on.

I hope this clears things up- I'm not much of a web-person, so I may not be able to get back to this site to see if anyone has any questions. Go ahead and drop me a line off our web-site, Exotics Veterinarian. Seattle, WA. Bird, Snake, Reptile, Rat, Ferret, Lizard, Vet. Western Washington.. I will try to answer as many as I can, but please understand it's federal law that I cannot give medical advice or prescribe medication for animals I have not examined.

Thanks for your time,
Adolf K. Maas, DVM

Hello,

Your response and the time you took to join is greatly appreciated. I will be forwarding you an email later this evening regarding the study about Lidocain. If possible, I would like to know the name of the author again (I forgot to write it down during our converstaion) and possibly where I can find it for reading.

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Thank you VERY MUCH for responding, it seems as if I HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD some of what you said at the clinic! Let me reitterate that agian, I misunderstood! After reading your posts it absolutely makes all sense.! You must forgive me as I have not slept well because of Oscar, he means a lot to me!LOL I once again thank you for making it very clear to me, and putting it in English, lol.

Wow, what a vet! I'm so impressed that you took the time and effort to talk with Rich on the phone, and to come here and explain everything, Dr. Maas. I am truly impressed with your professionalism and the obviously high level of compassion and caring for the animals and humans you work with.

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Amy

Very impressive!
Its nice to see a vet that actually thinks so highly of his reptile patients.

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Merlin,
What's Life Without A Little Magic!

Dr.Maas I bow before you and ask your forgiveness, I will grovel and admit I was wrong, lol I re read my first post and it does seem kind of snotty, not meant that way, just worried and confused and tired, lol. Once again I will state I misunderstood you, your post absolutely makes sense to me THank you again!


Sincerely groveling,
Nicole