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Venomoids

Discussion in 'General Venomous' started by HerpboyNY, Oct 30, 2005.

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  1. HerpboyNY

    HerpboyNY Elite Member

    What are your opinions on venomoids?
    I really hate this practice and try not to associate myself with it in any way
     
  2. chris7033

    chris7033 Elite Member

    its evil is all i'm gona say
     
  3. Rich

    Rich Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Hello,

    I am indifferent toward it. I personally don't own any hots, but if I had the ability to purchase a venomoid, I don't believe that I would turn it away.

    In the same token though, I wouldn't purchase a hot and then have it devenomized. This is certainly one of those situations where it is a personal preference.
     
  4. HerpboyNY

    HerpboyNY Elite Member

    If I were ot take one in as a rescue sure I would. But I would treat it just like any "real" hot
     
  5. Rich

    Rich Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Hello,

    The beauty of a venomoid is that you can safely own a "hot" without having to worry about getting a venom injection if you make a mistake. The only thing I think is wrong is that those that have had the venom glands removed are taking away the animals natural protection and killing method.

    It makes me wonder if the snake knows it can no longer inject. Does it realize that there is nothing there anymore or is it business as usual for the snake.

    If the snake still feels and believes it is injecting when it strikes, I can see nothing wrong with it. It would not affect the snake negatively if it doesn't realize it, and it would be safer for humans that wish to own hots.

    Anyone though that wishes to own hots should go through the proper channels and certification. Venomoids are not the simple solution.
     
  6. actionplant

    actionplant Elite Member

    Isn't the injection of venom the beginning of the digestion process, beyond just a method of killing prey? I'm no expert, but I would speculate that there is a distinct possibility of the animal's long-term health being affected by the possible added strain on it's system. Then again, this could be a moot point.
     
  7. Rich

    Rich Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Hello,

    I think that is a very valid point. Some species venom (hemotoxic venom I believe) cause muscle and tissue degeneration. This very well could be a pre-digestive measure. If the composition of muscle tissue is compromised in a way that it has begun to break down prior to the snake actually digesting the prey, it would certainly ease the strains of digestion. This is yet another good reason why research should be done before anyone considers devenomizing a snake.
     
  8. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    The venom is designed to start the digestion process. However having talked with several keepers of hots. There are long term captives that are accustomed to being fed on F/T prey and do not strike and envenomate. And even if they did the prey, being dead, would not circulate the venom and it would remain confined to the area where the bite occured.

    With regard to venomoids, This is avery controversial subject. IMO unless for use in an educational or research purpose it should not be done.
    I see no reason to subject an animal to such a proceedure just so someone that is unfit to deal with an intact venomous snake can claim to possess one.
     
  9. furryscaly

    furryscaly Elite Member

    I'm completely against the practice. As Merlin said, "I see no reason to subject an animal to such a proceedure just so someone that is unfit to deal with an intact venomous snake can claim to possess one."

    If you can't handle a venomous snake, then just don't get one. The process of removing the venom glands often leaves the snake horribly scarred, and in some cases the snake dies due to infections. More often than not, the surgery is not performed by a licensed vet. There was a thread like this one at VL somewhat recently. I'll see if I can find it and paste it over here.
     
  10. HerpboyNY

    HerpboyNY Elite Member

    http://thereptileroom.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=4277&st=0 Just look how it made some of the mods react, I had a million and one things to say to that guy but I kept my cool. Note, he is not in the "limited" because he supports voids, but becaus ehe was cauhgt advertizing his website(about voids) in PM to one of our undercover agents
     
  11. KrokadilyanGuy3

    KrokadilyanGuy3 Elite Member

    Heh, I'm surprised that TRR is still around..
     
  12. jeaton1982

    jeaton1982 New Member

    i curently have venomoids when buying them i made sure to see vet bills showing the proceedure was done in the best of conditions by a verry qualified vet and that the surgery was done at a verry young age (this keeps scaring to a minimal and allows tissue to fill in the gland area as the snake grows) ans far as visible scars there are non surgery is inside mouth and before people think that i did this just so i could say that i have the animals dont bother its partially true i wanted a safe way to learn to handle hots b4 i obtained any and lacked anyone available to mentor me and as i have been bitten (one time) by one of my rattlers im glad i chose the root i did also i volunteer my time to any school or boys&girls club that i can to teach people about snakes and try to undo as mutch unjust feer as i can and this allows me to show people venomous snakes without risk, i keep my snakes bity so that i dont get too comfortable with them like i have with my pythons and seeing that im probably going to recieve a cute little bundle of venomous joy from my eastern db rattlers in the next breeding season im glad ive had the practice and i would advise anyone who wants to spend the money to have properly done to get into hots the same way the only way to learn somthing is to practice but if your hit with a lethal does of venom while practicing it kinda kills the point
    when properly done by a profesional its verry safe for the snake and it heals quite quickly you can even have prosthetic glands made for older snakes or snakes with large gland/duct systems to keep proper shape in the head of the snake
     
  13. Snakes Inc.

    Snakes Inc. Member

    Owning a Venomoid is not like owning a ‘hot’ so lets not confuse this issue. If you wish to own a ‘hot’ get one and take your chances.
    If you really want to get a Venomoid why not get a corn snake and save yourself and the animal in question the trouble.
     
  14. caudalis_sa

    caudalis_sa Elite Member

    haha never knew there where any other africans around here... nice :D

    well i also agree. I hate the idea that people are keeping venomoids. This is probably the worst way you could get yourself into hots... this introduces the wrong kind of people into the world of keeping venomous... the way it is made out is that anyone can just keep a venomous now? it is cruel and you never know if the glands were removed properly.. i have heard of accounts where venom glands were regenerated... the practice also teaches you to be sloppy in your technique as you are not really dealing with a hot. Get taught the proper way or learn yourself...no shortcuts in this game.

    i also don't see why you would want to keep an animal if it has been abducted like that? the majesty of the beast is kinda taken away from it... just like plastic surgery on humans i feel if it does not help the person or animal don't do it!
     
  15. nicole

    nicole Elite Member

    Even though this thread is ancient, I can definately say that I learned a lot from it, especially when you link to the other site and see the link they have on it with the picture of how they devenomize:eek: It really does not pertain to me or ever will as I will never own either style:D But wow did I learn a lot!
     
  16. Snakes Inc.

    Snakes Inc. Member

    A venomoid debate is a very, very slippery slope in my opinion. This subject is like discussing religion and politics at the same time. A Controversial subject indeed.

    There are three camps. (Two camps in real terms)
    1) Those that think that altering any animal without good cause is unnatural, unethical and should be legally prosecuted for animal cruelty.
    2) Those that are inexperienced or without ethics having no conscience.
    3) Those that don’t care either way who are classed as by #1 as being #2.

    This debate can be compared to purchasing a bird in a cage but due to the owner fearing a potential escape due to his/her incompetence has the animal’s wings removed.
     
  17. kremlinator

    kremlinator Banned User

    "If the snake still feels and believes it is injecting when it strikes, I can see nothing wrong with it. It would not affect the snake negatively if it doesn't realize it, and it would be safer for humans that wish to own hots"

    Rich, don't forget that not only is it an invasive and likely painful process to remove the glands, but these toxins are derived from saliva. It has been demonstrated, time and again, that it aides the animal in digestion alot.

    Not to mention having said 'hot' surrounded by people who poke, prod, clean or just generally try to coexist stress it out- for its WHOLE life. They don't get used to us- they are basically all SUPER aggressive (just ask Steve Irwin, or watch his videos). Think of what that does to stress levels?

    NOT COOL. No matter how you look at it.
     
  18. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Thats really not a very good comparison! I don't know of anyone that has had the bird's wings physically cut off!:eek: They just trim the feathers.
    And in reality it has more to do with safety for the bird as opposed to incompetence of the owner. A bird fluttering around in a confined area can get seriously injured.
    Clipping a birds wings is no more hazardous than us getting a hair cut or clipping our fingernails, They all just grow back
    Producing a venomoid is an invasive surgical procedure.
     
  19. kremlinator

    kremlinator Banned User

    Don't forget dangerous, barbaric and completely uncalled for.
     
  20. Michael_C

    Michael_C Elite Member

    Well said! There is no reason to subject an animal to pain and suffering just because someone wants it.

    Concerning education, I have worked with venomous snakes used for education- they were shown, not handled. Education can be done without mutilation.

    Cheers,
    Michael
     
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