This Disappears When Logged In

Should Hobbyists Need Permits for Keeping Reptiles

Discussion in 'Herp Awareness' started by kriminaal, Feb 22, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. kriminaal

    kriminaal HH Block Leader Staff Member Premium Member

    I've been part of a discussion on this topic in another venue. It is a very interesting topic. Considering some parts of the world are already under this law, and others will probably be in the not too distant future.
    I'm interested in hearing everyones view points before I contaminate your minds with mine.;)
    So what do you think? Would it be beneficial to help stop mass-collecting in the wild? Would it help or hinder the captive breeding projects of the personal collections?
     
  2. schlegelbagel

    schlegelbagel Frog Lover Premium Member

    Re: Should Hobbyists Need Permits for Keeping Rept

    I would have no problems applying for a permit. I know I take care of my animals well and would have no problem passing. I mean, when I adopted my cats, the rescue agency required a vet reference and a personal reference.

    Would it stop collecting from the wild? No, i dont' think so. Do gun laws stop people from buying guns illegally? not at all.

    I don't think it would help or hinder captive breeding. Breeders would have to prove they could care for the animals, and then they would have a permit to breed.

    The same for personal collections.

    Would we need a permit for each individual animal? Each species? or just a blanket "allowed to keep herps" permit?
     
  3. kriminaal

    kriminaal HH Block Leader Staff Member Premium Member

    Re: Should Hobbyists Need Permits for Keeping Rept

    It seems most of the by-laws start with the larger species of reptiles. Like pythons, boas and the larger monitors. Although in an area just 1/2 hr from me you can now no longer purchase tortoises.:confused: That one has me baffled.
    One point about hindering the captive breeding projects is that if it becomes more difficult for people to purchase reptiles, then less people will be buying them. That means nowhere to sell our captive bred specimens.
     
  4. Typhanie

    Typhanie Elite Member

    Re: Should Hobbyists Need Permits for Keeping Rept

    I'm in favor only for the good of the animals. When people are browsing through a pet store and go, "oh look at that cute little burmese python!!" it would prevent them from being able to impulse buy it and then abuse it. Having to purchase a permit would at the very least make them step back and ask themselves if it's worth a second expense. At most, depending on the rules on how to acquire the permit, they'd have to prove that they could take care of it, which means knowing a LOT more about it than what they'd get at the store.

    It would drive the price of reptiles up, I think, but again, that would discourage impulse buys that result in an inability to care for their pet.
     
  5. kriminaal

    kriminaal HH Block Leader Staff Member Premium Member

    Re: Should Hobbyists Need Permits for Keeping Rept

    I agree with you. The main thing I believe that needs to be driven into Pet Stores is education. Once people are educated they can make better decisions. Not to say they all will but it'll be improvement. I have been in a smaller pet store before where the owner refused to sell someone a large species snake. The intended purchaser appeared to be in his mid teens and wasn't happy. I'm sure he got one somewhere else but I praised the owner for his efforts. It all has to start somewhere.
     
  6. titus

    titus Elite Member Premium Member

    Re: Should Hobbyists Need Permits for Keeping Rept

    I support permits for any large or rare animal, when the system is not too restrictive. I could see how it could reduce the number of wild collected species as pet shops will have a more limited number of clients that will go though the process of obtaining a permit. Though I don't see it affecting captive breeding, people who wish to breed would be most likely to get permits and keep them up to date whether they be pro or hobby breeders. It could also get rid of low quality breeding projects.

    Though this depends on the permit type, one state in Germany pass a law last year requiring permits to keep a list of animals (mostly vipers and large snakes) but banned breeding of the animals under this permit. To breed the restricted animals you must be a zoo or institute, and the animals can not be sold on to the market.
     
  7. furryscaly

    furryscaly Elite Member

    Re: Should Hobbyists Need Permits for Keeping Rept

    I think it depends on how they did it. What type of permit exactly, how it worked, and all that. I would love to see permits required for snakes that routinely get over 8 feet long, and all crocodilians. Rare species, large ones, species with really long lifespans, and species with high maintenance should require permits. Green iguanas should require permits, just because they get big, they're harder to care for than most realize, and it would cut down on the irresponsible buyers I think.

    I don't think ALL reptiles should require permits. If we did that, we ought to make all PETS require permits, and I really wouldn't have a problem with that either. I think WAY too many people get pets when they really ought not to. I wouldn't want the permit issue to get too expensive though. I wouldn't be very happy if I'm a responsible pet owner who has to pay out the nose just because I have a lot of animals.
     
  8. titus

    titus Elite Member Premium Member

    Re: Should Hobbyists Need Permits for Keeping Rept

    In putting more thought into the subject and looking at the laws in some states already in place. It's unlikely that the goverment would really care about looking into the buyer before buying the animal, but more permits for the perpose of tracking trade from person to person and state to state. It would be very unlikely that they would deny permits to a person without prior infractions.

    In some states the permit paperwork is give when you buy the animal and left for the buyer to send in. If this is the push to require permits, then it could be resolved in the same manner as CITES animals. Where the seller must give monthy his sales to the proper office and the buyer has a frame of time to register his animal, knowing at any time his animals may be inspected. An on failue to regisiter the animal that he may be fined and not alowed to buy anymore of the animals that require permits.
     
  9. schlegelbagel

    schlegelbagel Frog Lover Premium Member

    Re: Should Hobbyists Need Permits for Keeping Rept

    CA had permit requirements for cats and dogs and its yearly. Purely a money maker. You mail in your $15 a year per animal to the state and the only way to NOT pay that is to never take your animal to a vet, because if you don't have a license the vet has to turn you in. No one comes to your house to be sure you can take care of them. No one sees if you are a collector or not.

    My cats would cost me $45 per year because I'm a responsible cat owner. The cat collectors pay nothing. Those cats never go to the vet. CA's justification is licensing reunites lost pets and their owners, but so does going to petsmart and getting a tag made for $5. Or a one time fee of $45 to get your animal microchipped.

    If you have an animal that is NOT sterilized, its $150 a year, unless you are a certified breeder or a ranch dog. Then its $45 a year.

    Here is a link
    Animal License Fees, Animal Care and Regulation - County of Sacramento, California, USA
     
  10. zaroba

    zaroba Elite Member

    Re: Should Hobbyists Need Permits for Keeping Rept

    i would support it. others have stated 'it would stop impulse buying'.
    however, there needs to be a 'possibly' added to that.

    mainly because of how it would be enforced. yea, a permit can be required, but whats going to physically force a pet shop to verify a person has a permit before selling them a snake? what will make a private breeder do it?

    as an example,
    painted turtles and red eared sliders are native to PA, thus by law pet shops are not allowed to sell them except to schools for educational purposes unless they are...i think 4" or longer in shell length. however, theres a pet shop near me that will sell baby painted turtles and red eared sliders to anybody that asks for one. they do tell you that they aren't supposed to, but if you ask to buy one anyway they will sell one to you.
     
  11. titus

    titus Elite Member Premium Member

    Re: Should Hobbyists Need Permits for Keeping Rept

    I see exactly what your saying and still feel that the permit whould not stop anyone from being able to keep any animal but that the goverment is looking for a way to keep track of animals so that their not "let free". Though if a system like the CITES system was put in place along with the permits it would also keep animals out of the hands of those who don't qualify to keep them. For you who don't know how the paper trail that is CITES works I'll explane a bit.

    A importer ships out the animals lets say for fun a bunch of Boas. They arrive with all the proper paper work and go though Customs. The buyer picks them up, paper work has already been provided that he has bought these animals from the seller to the proper office (In the states I think the Department of wildlife, fish and game). So when the buyer goes to sell his boas he has to provide paperwork on every sold animal to that office as well as whomever buys from him needs to provide paperwork that they've bought the animal. If appon an inspection they do not have the number of animals that the paperwork says, thier looking at Heavy fines to jail time. In addtion to this any one who breeds these animals is required to keep a breeding record of all offspring regardless if the animal needs to be registered with CITES or not.
     
  12. Moshpitrockchick

    Moshpitrockchick Subscribed User Premium Member

    Re: Should Hobbyists Need Permits for Keeping Rept

    :eek: $45 for a micro-chip! We need to raise our prices, we do it for $20 because we want people to get them, Kind of like our spay/neuter prices, we do them at cost because we want people to get it done.
     
  13. schlegelbagel

    schlegelbagel Frog Lover Premium Member

    Re: Should Hobbyists Need Permits for Keeping Rept

    ha! its come down. It used to be $75!

    Remember, i'm on the pricey Balto-DC corridor :rolleyes:
     
  14. kriminaal

    kriminaal HH Block Leader Staff Member Premium Member

    Re: Should Hobbyists Need Permits for Keeping Rept

    I think what it comes down to something should be done at the source of the problem. What most breeders are interested in (or should be ) is producing enough captive bred animals that the demand for imported wild-caught diminishes. Countries that permit the collecting and exporting of wild-caught animals should put higher restrictions on the amount allowed. Also putting heavy fines on poaching as they already do for larger mammals.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page