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Calcium Supplement Questions

Discussion in 'Product Questions' started by Dragoness, Apr 4, 2009.

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  1. Dragoness

    Dragoness Elite Member

    Okay, I have been using Flukers high-calcium cricket gut load to get my crickets stuffed with calcium for my CWD. The dilemma being that my dragon does not eat her crickets right away, I'm not sure she's getting enough calcium from them at all - how long will that stay in their system as a gut load?

    She will not eat if her cage is open and I am in there fiddling around, or even when I watch her from across the room - she is a very skittish lizard. I know she IS eating - the bugs disappear from her bin, and she is pooping quite normally. I suspect she does it early in the morning before I am even up.

    I do give her earthworms, and sporadically, she will eat them. Also occasional pinky. I'm not sure exactly how much calcium she should be getting, nor how much she is getting from her staples - crickets and superworms.
     
  2. Rich

    Rich Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Does she eat any type of salad? Vegetation should also make up a portion of their diet. That is another means for getting calcium into their bodies.
     
  3. shwknight

    shwknight Elite Member

    I dust my crickets and roaches with calcium powder every other feeding.

    And Buddy WILL NOT eat veggies :mad:
    I've even made a "mash" and put the cooled down crickets on it but when I do that he just waits til they get off the "mash" to eat them.

    So, til my roach colony gets here next week and I can feed the roaches the veggies I just dust one feeding with calcium and the next one with vitamins.
     
  4. Dragoness

    Dragoness Elite Member

    the only time I ever succeeded in getting her to eat any type of vegetation was when I hid some diced up berries in a dish with her earthworms. Now she won't eat earthworms (or anything really) out of dishes anymore. She won't touch vegetables, so I gut load the crickets and superworms with them (sweet potato, carrot, peas, corn, spinach, and a bunch more) so she at least gets some that way.

    I have thought about dusting, but if she doesn't eat them right away, the dust will probably fall off. While I have not seen her eat in ages, I know she does eat (usually early in the morning, followed by a swim) I might have some luck dusting a pinky... but she doesn't get those more than once of twice a month at most, so the difference would be minimal.

    I think what I might do is stop feeding the crickets the gut-load calcium in advance, and instead, put some of it in a small dish in her dig-box for the crickets to eat after they are in her cage, that way, they are gut-loading themselves during the night, and are ready for her in the morning. (I usually put them in late at night so they are in there for her in the morning.)

    I tried the mash thing too, and while the dragon won't touch it, it does make a good cricket diet.
     
  5. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Hi Dragoness, have you tried feeding her small fish? These are easy to put the supplements on because obviously, it will stick easily. Small goldfish would be acceptable, and I think it would be worth a try! Let me know what you think. (I would supply the supps. twice weekly.)
    P.S. What`s her total length?
     
  6. Dragoness

    Dragoness Elite Member

    she has eaten fish before - I assume - because I have put some in her pool, and they disappear. I'm not sure the supplement would stick while they're in the water (live), but she doesn't eat things while I'm messing around in her cage, nor even while I am within sight of the cage. Makes this whole conundrum quite a puzzle.

    Total snout to tail-tip length is just over 22 inches (about 56 cm), and she has an undamaged tail - which surprises me.
     
  7. Dragoness

    Dragoness Elite Member

    another question - in browsing different supplements:

    what is the reason that some are with or without D3?

    and others are with or without phosphorus?
     
  8. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Its just offering different choices.
    With animals that have a good UVB lamp avoid the D3. Nocturnals get the D3.
    And don't use the phosphorus. They get enough of that from the diet.
     
  9. Dragoness

    Dragoness Elite Member

    Okay, since I have a Mega-Ray, I can probably skip the D3, and the phosphorus, and go with straight calcium for the CWD.

    Do they need other vitamins too? would straight calcium be fine, or is it best to give them a supplement with other stuff too (No D3 or phosphorus)
     
  10. shwknight

    shwknight Elite Member

  11. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Hi Dragoness, because you`re using the Mega-Ray, you don`t really need any extra calcium supps.. providing she`s basking for sufficient time under the lamp, ( several hours daily) but I would always give vitamins as it`s just not possible to provide the variety of foods she would get in the wild. Re. the fish: I mean pre-killed!! She`s a quick girl if she has to chase them around the pool!! ( Good exercise, though!) Try the one`s Steve suggested, but " Abidec" childrens multi vitamins are fine, ( or similar) just a couple of drops 2xweekly. ( You CAN get reptile vits. though.)
    Also she is big enough to take small mice, but the fuzzies are practically useless, too small and obviously the skeleton hasn`t formed properly.
     
  12. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    I would suggest using the calcium supplement. The UVB lights will allow them to metabolize the calcium that they are getting in their diet but it doesn't create calcium.
     
  13. Dragoness

    Dragoness Elite Member

    one of her favorite haunts is the ledge near the mega-ray, with an adjacent hide - she spends like 90% of her time there.

    Currently, the only calcium supplementation is in the form of high calcium cricket diet, and when I can convince her to eat worms.

    I can try the fish idea, but I have a feeling it will end up with a stinky cage - she won't eat from my hand, or a dish in my hand, or any time if I have been in her cage recently. I have a feeling the dead fish would just rot. She really is a very skittish creature.
     
  14. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    That`s quite true, it doesn`t create calcium, but exposure to the UVB rays whether by natural sunlight ( obviously the best!) or lamps like the Mega-Ray which have been shown to provide UVB intensity close to sunlight ( at the recommended distance) stimulates the cutaneus synthesis of vit..D. in the animal. ( I hope!)
     
  15. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Yes, try the fish, the worst that can happen is she won`t eat it! As you`re giving a variety of insects, I`m sure she`ll be fine, it`s just the more variety the better! ( But you can`t force her to eat what you know is best!)
     
  16. shwknight

    shwknight Elite Member

    yes Stefan, uvb is whats needed for the herp to create vitamin D3, D3 is whats needed to process the calcium the herp ingests, but, they get their calcium from their food so a supplement is required to make sure they HAVE enough calcium to process.

    I dust with calcium every other feeding to make sure my dragon has the calcium to precess (plus according to the care guide that's what your supposed to do ;))
     
  17. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    HI Steve, of course if you prefer to give a little extra, that`s fine, but see the following ; " Update on Vitamin D and Ultraviolet light in Basking Lizards" Mary E. Allen et.al. (1994) "Proceeds.. American Assoc.. of Zoo Veterinarians"
    P.S. This is a great discussion, and thanks to all, and yes, of course we can disagree on some things!!
     
  18. shwknight

    shwknight Elite Member

    Is this the article you stated?
    Calcidiol (25-hydroxyvitamin D) values are reported for 22 wild Ricord's iguanas (Cyclura ricordii) and seven wild rhinoceros iguanas (Cyclura cornuta cornuta). Calcitriol (1,25-hydroxyvitamin D) values are reported for 12 wild Ricord's iguanas and seven wild rhinoceros iguanas. These animals were captured as part of a larger health assessment study being conducted on Ricord's iguanas in Isla Cabritos National Park, Dominican Republic. A total of 13 captive rhinoceros iguanas held outdoors at Parque Zoológico Nacional were also sampled for comparison. Mean concentrations of 25-hydroxyvitamin D were 554 nmol/L (222 ng/ml) with a range of 250–1,118 nmol/L (100–448 ng/ml) for wild Ricord's iguanas, 332 nmol/L (133 ng/ml) with a range of 260–369 nmol/L (104–148 ng/ml) for wild rhinoceros iguanas, and 317 nmol/L (127 ng/ml) with a range of 220–519 nmol/L (88–208 ng/ml) for captive rhinoceros iguanas. On the basis of these results, serum concentrations of at least 325 nmol/L (130 ng/ml) for 25-hydroxyvitamin D should be considered normal for healthy Ricord's and rhinoceros iguanas
    If it is and I'm understanding it alls its saying is that captive iguanas have a broader range of D3 than wild ones and they average the 2 to get a healthy level. But this is for IGUANAS not water dragons. This article also doesn't state what the wild and captive were fed (as wild ones would be eating different things than the captive would be)
    And yes, a difference in opinion makes for a good healthy discussion :)
     
  19. Dragoness

    Dragoness Elite Member

    The base of almost all my problems with her diet is the fact that she is so darned skittish. She is usually fine when I handle her - she doesn't freak out or jump or bite. But she does stress a little and darken up for a few hours. Her people-phobia is so severe I wonder what exactly the previous owners did:mad:

    She freezes up if I open the cage. I'm not sure if more frequent handling would improve or worsen the situation.
     
  20. shwknight

    shwknight Elite Member

    I would think that if you start out slow and handle often for short periods of time she will eventually see that you are not a threat. I'd handle her a few times a day for say 10 minutes at a time. Do this for a few weeks and then slowly increase the amount of time you handle her but keep it at a few times a day. I'm no expert but common sense would tell me that the more interaction you have with her the less she will see you as a threat.
     
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