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Calcisand?

Discussion in 'Product Questions' started by IGGYOWNER, Dec 11, 2006.

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  1. Rich

    Rich Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Hello,

    I just took the time to read this thread, and the deleted posts from this thread (I can see what has been deleted). I have to say, I am less than impressed by how some of you have handled yourselves.

    Substrate debates do not make one person "right" or "wrong". It's all about experience, research, and the route that each keeper decides to take.

    Particulate substrates come with risk. Everyone that keeps reptiles and has read about them online is aware of this.

    Certain species are more supseptible to impaction and complications when kept on certain substrates. While there may be risk with all substrates, it is the keepers decision whether they choose to use them or not. All anyone else can do is try to share what they have learned.

    The title of this thread is "Calci-sand?". Calci-sand, in my opinion, is one of the absolute worst substrates on the market. Anyone who wishes to use sand in their enclosures should avoid calci-sand and stick with normal, small grained, washed playsand.

    Calci-sand is vastly composed of calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate is the active ingredient in many antacids. When consumed, it can and will neutralize the acid content in the stomach. With reptiles, this is dangerous. Seeing as accidental consumption is likely, they could easily consume enough of this substrate to make their stomach acids ineffective at digesting even additional calci-sand. The problem though is that it can impair the ability to digest food adequately. It is also worthy of noting that calci-sand includes a "dust". This dust can cause eye irritation. The dyes used to color the sand is also noted as staining the skin.
     
  2. Dawg

    Dawg Elite Member

    here here marsha i do not use sand with my leos or beardies i only use sand in my fishtank and my fish never get impacted so im going to go with if you want sand use it you can always feed in a different container and in the case with a uromastyx they dont eat bugs often so they mostly eat out of a dish mine never drags his out of the dish so i feel theres little to worry about and if you are grab a slate tile and put it under his dish on top of the sand. as a food stand
    my 2 cents
    (BTW my uro is on repti carpet and when he wants to dig he just goes under neath for cover)
     
  3. joeking

    joeking Elite Member

    You must have not listened either MoogleBass...I did not say you did not do research and I stated that with a uro I'm not familar with their backgrounds so I do not know but I...which means me...myself...would go with something different. Not trying to rip you MoongleBass just wanted to let people be aware that it isn't safe for everything and just because someone uses it and says it safe is doesn't mean it is. They should always do research themselves instead of listening to strangers on the internet. I did not say all who use sand are in the wrong for doing it, you did.

    I know a lot of people feel attacked every time the sand thing comes up when they're using it and there are people who freak out about using it with anything because they've seen geckos die from it and I do understand that there are things that naturally live on it and would be a lot happier to have a natural environment. I'm not attacking people using sand I'm stating that be aware of what your about to do (not you MoogleBass...people who haven't researched it).

    You had no reason to say anything like that to me or claim anything about me. I have no problems with people using sand as long as they actually clean it and its with something that belongs on it.
     
  4. lizlover5

    lizlover5 Well-Known Member

    I think my posts were the ones mostly deleted for getting a little out of hand. But I'm sure you know, when you try to explain something to someone and they are too thick to understand, it gets a bit frustrating.

    I don't really have any view on either substrate, I just would rather not risk anything with any sort of sand so I use paper towel and newspaper. I have even read that Uromastyx can be kept semi-humid and also given a water dish. I haven't had much luck with any humidity when I tried, the water evaporated too fast. If you are interested in learning about it go to www.proexotics.com and loo under their care information for their Uromastyx...

    Alex
     
  5. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    There was enough rudeness and lack of civility to go around on ALL parts! And none of it was required to have a discussion even with opposing viewpoints. Thats why I removed ALL of the posts!
    When you have been doing this as long as I have you will also learn that as soon as that type of dialog begins the discussion is over and no one is going to learn anything!
    Not even something that just might make someone reconsider THEIR side of the argument and possibly result in better care for EVERYONE'S animal.

    And isn't that the goal?
     
  6. KrokadilyanGuy3

    KrokadilyanGuy3 Elite Member

    For young animals, humidity is a very good thing.

    Uros can tolerate low amounts of humidity, and mine is supplied with a water bowl. But since most of its day is basking, humidity is going to be greatly reduced if your basking area is properly set up.

    I also include a hide with moist moss to make sure he gets enough hydration.
    When Uros aren't basking, they're usually in rock crevices and in low lying vegitation.
     
  7. MoogleBass

    MoogleBass Kittes are so nice! Premium Member

    The way your post came off JK is that it was directed to me. Cause you said your geckos. I said what i said to make my point known. I knew the second I said, "I use sand" there would be some to say something. See heres the thing I was defending my point and my care for my animals,I was poked, so I poked back. I know sand is generaly a bad idea for most things. Thats why they make Google, its a wonderful tool. Use it.
     
  8. KrokadilyanGuy3

    KrokadilyanGuy3 Elite Member

    I hate Google. It never gives me answers for questions I truely have. It's good for common situations, I guess, but I like to just make stuff up.
     
  9. joeking

    joeking Elite Member

    MoogleBass I'm sorry you took it that way and that you thought I was "poking" someone I really wasn't. There was no need for you to "poke" me back. But when your making a post on a forum...hmm...let me rephrase that...But when me you or somebody else, as in a human being is making their own post on any forum a lot of the time when said *human being* is posting that *human being* will refer to the group the *human being* is typing to as "you", as in the general audience. There of course, the general audience were those who were thinking about putting something on sand without doing research. Sorry again that you took it the wrong way. I never mean to attack anyone unless there is a reason (people who come on asking for help and everyone gives the same answer and they refuse to take it...mainly people coming on forums to make people upset). Once again, I have no problems with people using sand, and that quote was not directed at you
     
  10. Ziggy

    Ziggy New Member

    Iggy if i where u i would use reptilite sand it is a much finer grained substrate and easily passes through the digestive system. I've had my beardie on it for 4 years and never had a problem.
     
  11. BRIZZY

    BRIZZY Banned User

    I'm still going to disagree with you there ziggy! That's how reptiles get impacted is from sand and trying to digest sand! They can't!! I just think you should do major research before putting anything on sand. I wouldn't reccomend it at all to anyone ever, but hey it's your choice! I'm just glad my herps will be happy and not irritated by the sand!!
     
  12. joeking

    joeking Elite Member

    You must admit though Brizzy, there are things that do exist that live on sand...But for the most part I think the main reason deserts are deserted is because not much can live on it. I wouldn't put anything on sand either but there is an aspect of something must live on it but how much do people really know about natural habitats of most creatures. I think the safest bet for me is to stay away from it.
     
  13. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Exactly! And of the few animals that do live in desert areas most of them do not live their entire existance on loose sand as they will in a sand based enclosure.
    There in lies a problem. Saying something is safe just because one animal has lived on it for a few years with no obvious problem can be very misleading. Also the product you are referring to IS a calcium sand and is just about the worst thing you could use.

    There are 2 types of impaction. In one there is a sudden blockage that immediately causes a problem. The other is a condition where the blockage builds up over time little by little. Your dragon could be accumulating an impaction as we speak. I am not saying it is but it is a distinct possibility.
    The discussions over pros and cons of using sand as a substrate will likely continue to go on for the immediate future.
    For myself and my charges I choose to err on the side of caution.
     
  14. BRIZZY

    BRIZZY Banned User

    I have to agree again with joe and merlin!! Nicely said!!
     
  15. KrokadilyanGuy3

    KrokadilyanGuy3 Elite Member

    De' ja' vue
    I'm still at lost with the sand basis constantly coming up on nearly every forum out there, (this site alone has probably 4-5 threads on it alone) and especially since it's nearly as vague as discussing how to say tomatoe.

    This thread wasn't even about conventional sand, so in terms, the topic has clearly been hy-jacked; and outside of a few small remarks, really does not help the person needing specific guidance. (excluding Marshy's post.)

    What really kills me is the discussion never changes, for either side of the table. What also kills me is the stats of these conclusions are also misldeading, and everyone always assumes people use nothing but sand when they ask/ or state about using sand as a substrate. They also assume that the handful of animals that have been, in fact, killed by sand impaction are healthy animals, even though a lot of the cases shown online have stated otherwise.

    But, everyone knows my stand on this, so I'll leave it be. I'm also sure Brizzy is the same person discussing this topic with me and Micheal on "The other forum", so she knows my standing on this as well.

    Someone should make a post about sand a sticky, as well as a sticky for Calci-sand thread about why we all agree that this is a bad idea.
     
  16. Kachina

    Kachina Elite Member

    So what is cali-sand? I had it for my hermit crabs then threw it out on the first cleaning. Is it sand coated in calcium? Then therr is the type that glows in the dark. Why would anyone think of making a sand to eat?
     
  17. Rich

    Rich Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Hello,

    It's pure calcium carbonate.
     
  18. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Its ground up calcium carbonate, a mineral.
    As for making a sand to eat, its simply a marketing ploy to get you to buy their product. Since some lizards will actively consume calcium as a part of their lifestyle, the manufacturer's push that their product is digestable to fool people into believing that it is safe to use.
    It isn't.

    And the glow in the dark part is just to attract the "ooooooooooh thats so cool" shopper!
     
  19. joeking

    joeking Elite Member

    Pretty much anything is digestible if you eat a grain of it and digestable to what? It doesnt really specify...
     
  20. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Not true. Some things will digest and somethings won't.
    Sand is eroded stone. Depending on what the original material is composed of it may or may not break down in digestion. For instance a single grain of calcium carbonate sand would dissolve in stomach acid therefore they can say it is digestable.
    A grain of granite would not.
    However a single grain of a material might pass THROUGH the digestive system without causing any harm. The problem lies in accumulation in the digestive system and the blockage that build up causes.
     
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