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Are All Black Rat Snakes Illegal in Ohio?

Discussion in 'Ratsnakes' started by poomwah, Jan 8, 2014.

  1. poomwah

    poomwah Well-Known Member

    I know that the DNR requires black rat snakes to have PIT tags and permits.
    Does that apply to all black rats? or just WC, or just "natrual" color phase?
    I've seen white sided black rats for sale in pet shops in ohio and the shop owners insisted there were no restrictions or regulations against them, no permits necessary , etc. Is this just typical pet shop ignorance?
    Or is it legal to own a captive bred, white sided without a permit?
     
  2. DwarvenChef

    DwarvenChef Elite Member

    Weird is that the DNR doesn't list the Black ratsnake but a Grey ratsnake. I know black ratsnakes are in Ohio because I caught them in the 70-80's there...

    Weird
     
  3. poomwah

    poomwah Well-Known Member

    I thought that was weird too, in addition to the fact that they don't list grey rat snakes as elaphe, but that's another point altogether.
    I noticed, that on their site that lists the regulations and talks about licensing, like you noticed, that they don't list black rats, however, I did find another site from ohio DNR that listed black rat's as being native to ohio.
    I've been told that color morphs like the white sided are not bound by the same regulations as "normals" but I've also been told that they are looked at the same by the DNR.
    I've tried to contact the DNR and they just refer me back to the webpage I mentioned.
     
  4. DwarvenChef

    DwarvenChef Elite Member

    Just sent my uncle a note to help me figure things out. He is very active in the Herp groups in OH and may be able to shed some light on the issues.
     
  5. poomwah

    poomwah Well-Known Member

    Thank you Chef. I found a black rat morph and a black rat hybrid that I would LOVE to have. I just want to make sure before I get either of them.
     
  6. DwarvenChef

    DwarvenChef Elite Member

    We have issues here in CA with CA kings, native but hugely captive bred, the fish and game dept will still harass you and confiscate your animals unless you have hard core evidence that you bought them legally as captive bred. I got detained years ago moving back into CA with 2 Cali Kings I bought many years before in South Carolina. I had photos, receipts, vet bills, from 3 states and still they gave me a hard time.

    So even if your clear "legally" you may still end up with issues if you get the wrong guy snooping around your collection.
     
  7. DwarvenChef

    DwarvenChef Elite Member

    - - - Updated - - -

    - - - Updated - - -

    This was the reply I got. He has a buddy in the DNR and can get more specific info if needed but things are in chaos over there due to the new laws going into effect.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  8. poomwah

    poomwah Well-Known Member

    Thanks again Chef,
    Did he by any chance mention whether they look at morphs and hybrids the same as "natural" versions?
     
  9. DwarvenChef

    DwarvenChef Elite Member

    I asked but will not see a reply till tomorrow I think. He's pretty good about looking into this stuff. He was a Biology teacher there for MANY years and has now been retired. Still active in OH natural resources and such so I would use his info to get the ball rolling. Also to look into future law proposals...
     
  10. DwarvenChef

    DwarvenChef Elite Member

    Just got a reply,

    You MUST be able to prove it was CB, that means receipts and paperwork, as well as tagging. This law is new so many shop owners may be slow on reacting to it. But the current owner is the one that will be fined not the guy who sold it. CYA in full effect here...
     
  11. poomwah

    poomwah Well-Known Member

    thanks Chef, I really appreciate it
     
  12. poomwah

    poomwah Well-Known Member

    so it does include black rats and all their morphs?

    to add to the confusion, remember how you noticed the DNR site lists Grey Rat snakes, but not Black Rat snakes....
    this http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/9/pdf/pub003.pdf shows black rat snakes but not grey rat snakes.
     
  13. poomwah

    poomwah Well-Known Member

    All right, I THINK I have this one figured out.....
    Morphs and hybrids are irrelevant, a black rat morph is still a black rat according to the DNR. A black rat hybrid, according to the DNR is restricted by whatever regulations apply to black rats in addition to any regulations that might apply to the other species in the cross.
    However, not very long ago, it was determined that black rats were no longer of the elaphe family and became known by the family of pantherophis. It seems that at that time, they also made a distinction between eastern and western rat snakes. The western rat snake being the obsoletus and spiloides , the eastern rat snake being alleghaniensis. So there are western black rats in ohio : pantherophis obsoletus, and from georgia to vermont there are eastern black rats : pantherophis alleghaniensis.
    So, it SEEMS, that black rat snakes are legal to own in ohio as long as its an eastern black rat and not a western black rat.
    I HOPE I'm right, LOL
     
  14. DwarvenChef

    DwarvenChef Elite Member

    <---- is glad I don't live in OH :p
     
  15. TJOHNSON722

    TJOHNSON722 Elite Member

    You have no idea. You know they're reporting only 150 owners statewide has registered they're exotics. Ha. There are more exotic owners especially snakes (over 12 feet) in Cincinnati alone. Ohio is so stupid.

    You say youre glad you don't live in Ohio, but your state may be next. I've read about states waiting to see how it plays out with us before they begin it themselves. Be careful everyone, this could be your future.
     
  16. DwarvenChef

    DwarvenChef Elite Member

    Oh I'm well aware of the stupidity of CA's laws, they have been at this kind of thing sense I became aware of it in the 70's. San Diego passed a law just like this one that lasted about 24 hours. Once they really tried to figure out what they had done it was scrubbed, Not sure of the verbatim here but it was completely un enforceable or track able. But didn't stop them from trying to get it on the books. Every year it comes up so it's just a matter of time before it happens.
     
  17. poomwah

    poomwah Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry for being such a pessimist but I think its only a matter of time (perhaps not very long) before ohio outlaws reptile ownership altogether
     

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