Feeding Savanna Monitors

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Originally Posted by jarich

And again man, the onus of evidence isnt on us to show that mice cause thousands of deaths by fatty liver disease. Now that we know their natural diet is inverts (or the majority is inverts at the very least) the onus is on you to prove that they should not be fed this natural diet for some reason. Are monitors dying because they are being fed an invert diet? Well then why feed them mice?

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The onus isn`t on "us". Who?
Where have I said they should not be fed inverts?
The onus IS on "you" to show vertebrates (inc. rodents), fed to a properly supported V. exanthematicus cause health problems... It`s "you" who are stating they do!? Show me/us....

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Originally Posted by Merlin

To be honest, and this is going to make some people a bit unhappy. I think that one of the biggest stumbling blocks in the advancement of knowledge in the monitor community,...
IS the monitor community.
There are far too many who take the attitude of "I have all the answers and if you don't agree with me then you are an idiot." Instead for swapping stories and joining forces to actually discover the truth, ego gets involved and things go rapidly down hill. I saw the same things many years ago with those of us in the green iguana community.
It was when FINALLY we put ego aside and started to really communicate that advances were made.
Hopefully this will happen in the monitor community as well.

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You would not believe how much I agree with this post.

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Originally Posted by Merlin

I believe that this is an issue that is going to continue for some time. Unless we get some controlled studies, in a controlled environment, most of this goes back to a "he said/she said" type of arguement.

To be honest, and this is going to make some people a bit unhappy. I think that one of the biggest stumbling blocks in the advancement of knowledge in the monitor community,...
IS the monitor community.
There are far too many who take the attitude of "I have all the answers and if you don't agree with me then you are an idiot." Instead for swapping stories and joining forces to actually discover the truth, ego gets involved and things go rapidly down hill. I saw the same things many years ago with those of us in the green iguana community.
It was when FINALLY we put ego aside and started to really communicate that advances were made.
Hopefully this will happen in the monitor community as well.

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Doesn't bother me in the least. I know what works for me in the monitors I keep. Other species such as Savs I have a bunch of questions to put forth. But no conclusions.
I think it is advancing, all be it by blood and tears ;)


EDIT: I found this and is a good read.
Michael Balsai on the Savannah Monitor Diet

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Originally Posted by jarich

Again, where did you find evidence that they only eat inverts as hatchlings? I would again love to see the article detailing this as I have never seen it. Youre using some pretty specific numbers there so I assume its from a source.

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No, I said the hatchlings weigh between 5 to 7g, that being the case, it might explain the insects (mainly/only?) based diet. And the figures are from Daniel Bennett himself....

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Originally Posted by kriminaal

From what I see around the web most people are overfeeding their monitors. Their caloric requirements in their native environments are very low, they do only what they must to expend energy. Put them in captivity and their requirements are even lower based solely upon the less exercise.
It would be highly suspect that the main issue of feeding rodents is the high excess of calories. Those that have monitors know that they don't merely stop eating because they are not hungry.
Feeding them invertebrate prey would certainly fix that issue as you would go broke before feeding them the rodent equivalent of calories in insects.

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Mike, we`ve both tried repeatedly to emphasise that the total ammount of food must be in relation to the total ammount of energy used, ANY prey item can cause obesity/disease if the animal is fed more than it can use.
We`ve spoken too, of the commonly heard " advise" which states "they need huge ammounts", when in fact they need carefully regulated ammounts in captivity.
I disagree that they`re calorific requirements in the wild are very low (when, other than for a couple of months or so?), and there`s no real evidence that they remain completely inactive at that time either, or whether they might still take food if it`s available (Daniel Bennett, pers. comm.).
EDIT: It`s MUCH better to discuss these topics in public than in private!! ;)

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Originally Posted by murrindindi

I disagree that they`re calorific requirements in the wild are very low (when, other than for a couple of months or so?), and there`s no real evidence that they remain completely inactive at that time either, or whether they might still take food if it`s available (Daniel Bennett, pers. comm.).

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I guess saying that it's very low would have to be compared to something or some other situation.
But what I was trying to say and I could be wrong, was that they don't have a huge NEED of calories as one would suppose they do. Such as a mammal of the same size.
Certainly a difference in body sizes when you take what Dr. Bennett found and what you see them growing to in captivity.

Just tossing this out there, I was told more than once Chomper was heavy, yet I managed to overfeed him without any rodents.

Something to consider, snails, crickets, worms and bugs are gargantuan in Africa.

Crickets and grasshoppers are the size of locusts, and how many of these snails would equal the weight of a mouse?

http://www.varanus.us/nutrition/snail.jpg

All I am saying here is, there are plenty of food options available without questioning the studies performed by biologists.

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Originally Posted by Infernalis

Just tossing this out there, I was told more than once Chomper was heavy, yet I managed to overfeed him without any rodents.

Something to consider, snails, crickets, worms and bugs are gargantuan in Africa.

Crickets and grasshoppers are the size of locusts, and how many of these snails would equal the weight of a mouse?


All I am saying here is, there are plenty of food options available without questioning the studies performed by biologists.

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Good point.
Grrr I'm getting sucked into this thing again, after saying to myself I wouldn't.

Look back at my posts, I have not stated that a rodent diet causes anything. What I've stated repeatedly is that the available scientific evidence shows them to be mostly eating an invertebrate diet. Therefore if you want to say this isn't the BEST diet for them, you need to bring evidence to support that. I'm not saying they can't live on mice. I'm saying I try in all matters of husbandry to reproduce, as closely as I can, their natural environment. What is your reason for not feeding them their natural diet? I'm no expert, maybe there is some reason to switch. But that decision would based on someone producing scientific evidence showing that an invert diet is not good for them and how mice are better. So far no such evidence has been put forward.

First off, I'd like to point out that it's very possible to feed your monitors nothing but inverts and not go broke. I have thirteen monitors (yes, 13), and the majority of most of their diets is inverts. I keep several roach colonies, several cricket colonies, as well as breeding pond snails. I get crayfish cheaply online, and can get more snails, freshwater crab, and whole shrimp very cheaply at my Asian market. I am by no means rich, so please explain to me how it's impossible to feed one monitor soley an invert diet, when I have thirteen eating mostly inverts.

Secondly, savannah monitors have been discovered to take SOME vertibrate prey, fairly rarely. The vertibrates they do take are in the form of frogs, small lizards, and small snakes. Even more rare than that they will take the occasional fish and the occasional chick/developed egg.

Third, a lot of people are focusing on just the one study Bennett did that showed a roden in the diet. This is the only study that has shown rodents as prey, and yes, this was taken in a small area. What you must note is that there have been more studies, over more ranges, that show ZERO rodents as prey.

Fourthly, although we may not have a lot of African inverts to offer our monitors (we do have some available), you can feel free to check nutritional charts and compare what we do have to what they would naturally eat, and provide a properly balanced diet, WITHOUT the use of rodents.

Fifth, there is proof that rodents fed in captivity have had negative impacts on their health. I have already provided Murrindindi several times with these articles, yet he refuses to acknowledge them. If you must check again, please refer to my signature, specificly articles written up by Bentley.