Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
Hi Wayne,
I`ve been trying to get that same message across for so long, my typing finger a only half the length it used to be!
It`s CONDITIONS inside the box that determine success or failure, whatever diet is fed.....
And it`s also exremely important to learn something of how these animals function, which will help keepers to undestand WHY certain things MUST be in place 24/7 365 days a year, and from the very beginning, because that`s how soon the sub-par husbandry has a detrimental effect on both short and long term health...
I`ll make a guess; you thought your monitor could be raised like any other reptile, and was basically just another lizard, or snake with legs?
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
Just to start, I'm not a Sav keeper, but do have a background in scientific study. The one study showing a monitor had eaten a rodent, by no means shows a regular or even occasional food source. If you conducted a study of humans will small samples from around the world, you may find that one had something like fecal matter ingested due to either a mental problem, starvation, or possibly even to try something different or new. Or a less gross food item like dirt or mud. But those anomalies due not mean we should add those into the food pyramid even at a level of 0.2% of our lifetime intake.
Just because it was found once certainly does not mean it is a staple food (even on a once-per-year basis). I don't know the medical effects of a rodent on a Sav, so I am not concluding that it would or wouldn't be advisable. However, it is naive to say that since one studied animal ate on rodent, that all Sav's are okay to eat the occasional rodent. Unless, of course, you're ready to sit down to your own plate of poo or mud (I joke...but you get the point).
If that same study showed that one Sav with high levels of rodent in its diet led to better coloring, scales, and a higher level of activity, then one may infer that it may be of some benefit. I don't believe that anyone has shown that either through scientific study of captive or wild Sav's or through personal experience. The original posting on this thread mentioned the chicks may have aided in a 'lustre and shine' that was not present before. But again, not a benefit shown of the rodent besides the entertainment and cost factor mentioned previously in this thread.
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
I agree that proper enclosure information is the most important information for new users. (I wonder if the same heated debates over proper enclosures were happening 10 or 15 years ago.) And again, Murrindindi, it immediately brings up the point that feeding high fat diets is especially problematic if the enclosure is the least bit off. So if you are so worried about those inexperienced keepers without proper enclosures, then you of all people should be telling others that they shouldnt feed rodents.
Thanks for the reference about the SDZ diet. Its funny that Jeff happened to pick such a low fat meat source to mimic rodents with if that was all he was trying to do.
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shayne
Just to start, I'm not a Sav keeper, but do have a background in scientific study. The one study showing a monitor had eaten a rodent, by no means shows a regular or even occasional food source. If you conducted a study of humans will small samples from around the world, you may find that one had something like fecal matter ingested due to either a mental problem, starvation, or possibly even to try something different or new. Or a less gross food item like dirt or mud. But those anomalies due not mean we should add those into the food pyramid even at a level of 0.2% of our lifetime intake.
Just because it was found once certainly does not mean it is a staple food (even on a once-per-year basis). I don't know the medical effects of a rodent on a Sav, so I am not concluding that it would or wouldn't be advisable. However, it is naive to say that since one studied animal ate on rodent, that all Sav's are okay to eat the occasional rodent. Unless, of course, you're ready to sit down to your own plate of poo or mud (I joke...but you get the point).
If that same study showed that one Sav with high levels of rodent in its diet led to better coloring, scales, and a higher level of activity, then one may infer that it may be of some benefit. I don't believe that anyone has shown that either through scientific study of captive or wild Sav's or through personal experience. The original posting on this thread mentioned the chicks may have aided in a 'lustre and shine' that was not present before. But again, not a benefit shown of the rodent besides the entertainment and cost factor mentioned previously in this thread.
Hi, you clearly haven`t bothered looking too far for evidence they can indeed take rodents in captivity and remain long lived, healthy and productive....
There`s no "entertainment value" in feeding f/t or f/k, again, who said that was EVER the object of the excercise on this forum?
Who said one Savannah monitor once ate a rodent out of the whole population in Africa?
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
Quote:
Originally Posted by
murrindindi
Hi, you clearly haven`t bothered looking too far for evidence they can indeed take rodents in captivity and remain long lived, healthy and productive....
There`s no "entertainment value" in feeding f/t or f/k, again, who said that was EVER the object of the excercise on this forum?
Who said one Savannah monitor once ate a rodent out of the whole population in Africa?
Maybe you missed the point - the logic of giving them rodents based off of seeing a single Savannah monitor in a single study is naive. I didn't say that it will harm or help. What research do you have that it benefits them? As I stated a human can eat dirt and still live a long, healthy, and productive life. That doesn't help prove there's some inherent benefit in doing so.
The entertainment value was the post about checking out the idiots on youtube posting videos of feeding their monitors rodents and watching the battle. I didn't call it entertaining personally (as I haven't watched any of the videos), I was referring to the post about newbies feeding them rodents all day and then posting on here asking for help as to why they are fat and don't eat (paraphrased).
I also never stated that one Savannah monitor ate one rodent in all of Africa, but studies are done in order to take a sample of population and infer, based off small or large samples of evidence, what the majority of population is like. Numerous studies throughout different populations show that the likelihood of rodent consumption as part of normal diet is next to none. Anomalies are always part of real-life research, but not disregarding it as such is what leads individuals to ridiculous conclusions that 5-10% of diet should be rodent. It's that same mentality that brings about Holocaust denialists, etc. that choose to overlook the overwhelming amount of evidence contrary to their narrow-minded view.
Once again, I don't keep Savannah monitors and don't know personally as to the benefit or harm done from feeding them rodents. I am simply speaking about the research that exists and scientific conclusions that should/should not come from said research.
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
Quote:
Originally Posted by
murrindindi
Hi Wayne, I`ll make a guess; you thought your monitor could be raised like any other reptile, and was basically just another lizard, or snake with legs?
You guess well Stefan.
However, I now inclined to believe that failures with tropical snake species has a lot to do with the very same factors.
The Asian Green snake (Cyclophiops Major) is but one such example.. No one has ever kept one alive in captivity for very long, it seems that as soon as the specimens are removed from the jungle, they have about one year left to live.
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
[QUOTE=Shayne;386973]
Just because it was found once certainly does not mean it is a staple food (even on a once-per-year basis). I don't know the medical effects of a rodent on a Sav, so I am not concluding that it would or wouldn't be advisable. However, it is naive to say that since one studied animal ate on rodent, that all Sav's are okay to eat the occasional rodent. Unless, of course, you're ready to sit down to your own plate of poo or mud (I joke...but you get the point).
Sorry, that`s exactly what you did say; one Savannah monitor ate a rodent, then you state you`re not concluding whether they should or shouldn`t eat them, on the other hand, you clearly think they shouldn`t because you don`t know if it would be of benefit?
Then you refer to the videos of newbies feeding their monitors all day on rodents, though you haven`t actually seen them?
Why don`t you get yourself a copy of Daniel Bennett and Ravi Thakoorydal`s Savannah monitor book, check how long Ravi kept and bred this species, contact both authors, ask them why they recommended including rodents in the captive diet, then come back here with their explanations?
A very simple way to get at least some evidence one way or the other, and from one of the scientists that actually conducted the studies in the wild (it doesn`t get better than that, surely)! ;)
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Infernalis
You guess well Stefan.
However, I now inclined to believe that failures with tropical snake species has a lot to do with the very same factors.
The Asian Green snake (Cyclophiops Major) is but one such example.. No one has ever kept one alive in captivity for very long, it seems that as soon as the specimens are removed from the jungle, they have about one year left to live.
Wayne, you were one of thousands of well meaning people who didn`t find out what these animals "are", compared to most other reptiles. Then agin, when one can buy them so cheaply and easily, why would anyone think they had some very specific needs as regards temps/humidity, whole prey diets, etc, etc, unlike some of the more expensive types that might make people think a little more before getting them... Cheap and disposable....
It took guts to put yourself in the "firing line" so to speak, and because you did, you`re now reaping the benefits, and more to the point, your future monitor/s will. And if you continue to post the progress, so will others coming in and already here, if we can just get them to listen. (EASY)!! ;)
(Well, maybe not)....
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
If only they all followed Bradyloach's footsteps.
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
First off, let's get something cleared up: The SDZ diet was made for komodo dragons, who regularly take mammals as prey in the wild, not savannah monitors, who don't. The SDZ diet was introduced to savannah monitors through the pet trade, who we all know to be the basis of so much misinformation. The average pet store cares only about making a sale, and they know that they aren't going to be able to sell an animal so easily with such expensive and specific husbandry needs. Why not tell the customer that they can live in a 40 gallon fish tank and be fed turkey?
Secondly, nobody has said that other aspects of husbandry (enclosure, substrate, humidity, temperature, etc) wasn't important. In fact, it's generally the first thing that most posters on here cover.
Third, I'd like to address this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by murrindindi
Again BarelyBreathing, you quite deliberately misinterpret what`s been said in a bid to "ram" your own bigoted views home to beginners. NOBODY that I can see has EVER advised feeding a diet based on rodents, where are you getting your information????
I don't appreciate being called a bigot for actually doing research and advising diets based on scientific evidence (something you can't offer). You really need to stop with the insults. Since the first day that I have joined this forum, the attacks (however subtle you've tried to make them), have come in consistently. I've addressed you on this before, and instead of offering an apology, you retorted with more insults. Also, you seem to think that I said an all rodent diet. I didn't. I said this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing
please show me ONE savannah monitor that has thrived on a diet consisting of rodents.
Consisting of does not equal all. And you still haven't shown any proof of such.
