Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jarich
I dont think the debate is about "never, ever feeding vertebrates". No one is saying the occasional mouse will cause fatty liver disease. What we are trying to determine, and tell new owners, is the best diet for this animal.
You also miss the point that a mouse diet exacerbates these common husbandry problems you speak of. If they are already having a hard time getting the right conditions met with regards to environment, then a mouse diet will only make matters worse. An animal that doesnt have high enough temps will become obese quickly on a mouse diet and add all those problems onto the already present metabolism issues. An animal with a low humidity enclosure will already have a hard time with uric acid levels, and again a mouse diet will increase those levels dramatically. So once again, the question still remains, why are you so insistent on telling people to feed mice?
Hi again jarich,
because you`ve only just joined in the discussion, you`ve obviously missed most of what`s been said over the last couple of months. BarelyBreathing has stated time and again they almost never take rodents in the wild, and therefore, should NEVER do so in captivity, in part, because their liver cannnot cope with that type of prey? And who`s suggesting a "mouse diet"?
I`m not taking any more time debating with people who make laws according to their biased views on the wild diet of this species, and insist that the only "safe" prey to feed captives is inverts?
You can all feed whatever you choose, it`s not me that`s saying a certain prey must/must not be used, it`s the savannahmonitor.org "experts" who are telling everyone else rodents per se are bad for the species.
The KNOWN FACTS are that it`s the CONDITIONS the overwhelming majority of these animals are subjected to that cause so much suffering, NOT rodents, or any other prey.
Please stop putting so much emphasis on that, and start getting the message across that they need supporting from the very beginning. That being the case, there should be no health problems whatsoever due to the "wrong" diet (vertebrates, inc.. rodents)!!
And just to make it clear: It`s no more difficult to provide suitable conditions for a Varanid than for an Iguana, a Bearded dragon lizard, or any other reptile (cage size perhaps an exception in some cases). They need heat, cool, light, dark, high/medium/low humidity, a suitable enclosure, etc, etc, etc... I have that information, so do many others, and more than willing to pass it on!!
By the way, may I ask which Varanid species you keep/work with (just out of interest)?
Thanks for taking part, it all helps! ;)
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rakoladycz
You haven't been a member here long enough, but the arguement has been "never, ever feeding vertebrates" by certain individuals.
Erm, perhaps I haven't been here long enough, but I've never heard anybody say zero vertibrates ever. In fact, most people recommend a few appropriate vertibrates here and there. What you're not understanding is that there is a HUGE difference in nutritional value between rodents and the few vertibrates they take naturally, like frogs, snakes, lizards, and small fish.
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
I guess the problem is that, like Murrindindi mentioned, we are trying to make headways into the deaths of so many of these animals with new keepers. As such, its somewhat irresponsible to tell people that mice are a perfectly healthy option to feed these reptiles.
Telling people that mice are a perfectly healthy option will likely lead to the continuation of a rodent diet. Will an occasional mouse kill them? I cant see how. Is there any need to tell them to feed mice at all though? Again, I cant see how. The idea here is to promote the healthiest diet for these animals, along with the best environment. They could also most likely live with the humidity at around 55% but we dont tell them to keep their enclosure at that humidity. They could probably live with their basking spots at 110 degrees, but again we tell them to keep it above 120. We tell them those specific things because we are trying to create the absolute best, most natural environment for them. If that is true for their environment, then why is diet different?
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
That brings something to my mind.
How often you you see on youtube beginners feeding live mice to their Savs.
They're much more entertainment value to them in feeding a live mouse. Watching them
strike take down and kill the mouse is something they like to show their friends. So they do it a few times each day every day in their dried out habitats.
Overfeeding their Sav until you see them posting on a forum puzzled why their monitor suddenly doesn't eat anymore.
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
Quote:
Originally Posted by
murrindindi
Hi again jarich,
because you`ve only just joined in the discussion, you`ve obviously missed most of what`s been said over the last couple of months. BarelyBreathing has stated time and again they almost never take rodents in the wild, and therefore, should NEVER do so in captivity, in part, because their liver cannnot cope with that type of prey? And who`s suggesting a "mouse diet"?
I`m not taking any more time debating with people who make laws according to their biased views on the wild diet of this species, and insist that the only "safe" prey to feed captives is inverts?
You can all feed whatever you choose, it`s not me that`s saying a certain prey must/must not be used, it`s the savannahmonitor.org "experts" who are telling everyone else rodents per se are bad for the species.
The KNOWN FACTS are that it`s the CONDITIONS the overwhelming majority of these animals are subjected to that cause so much suffering, NOT rodents, or any other prey.
Please stop putting so much emphasis on that, and start getting the message across that they need supporting from the very beginning. That being the case, there should be no health problems whatsoever due to the "wrong" diet (vertebrates, inc.. rodents)!!
And just to make it clear: It`s no more difficult to provide suitable conditions for a Varanid than for an Iguana, a Bearded dragon lizard, or any other reptile (cage size perhaps an exception in some cases). They need heat, cool, light, dark, high/medium/low humidity, a suitable enclosure, etc, etc, etc... I have that information, so do many others, and more than willing to pass it on!!
By the way, may I ask which Varanid species you keep/work with (just out of interest)?
Thanks for taking part, it all helps! ;)
I agree that we are all taking part in something important here, so I hope you never get too frustrated or upset to continue taking part. All science must be scrutinized to be valid, and that's what we all are doing.
As regards rodents, I suppose I often equate it with bacon in my mind. It's not going to kill you if you only eat it occasionally, but I don't think you'll ever find any nutritionist who will tell you that you should make an effort to incorporate it into your diet.
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
Murrindindi- when has ANYBODY said that other aspects of husbandry wasn't important?
What makes you think that you know better than evolution?
WHERE IS THE PROOF?
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
I sure wish that I could get my little guy to eat...he doesn't want anything. Well, he does like crickets, and sometimes boiled eggs. He turns away from pinkies, he turns away from super worms, I even tried the "SDZ" diet and he turned away from that. We don't have any asian markets around here. Someone said to try vension, but he probably won't eat that either.
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DonnaRanee
I sure wish that I could get my little guy to eat...he doesn't want anything. Well, he does like crickets, and sometimes boiled eggs. He turns away from pinkies, he turns away from super worms, I even tried the "SDZ" diet and he turned away from that. We don't have any asian markets around here. Someone said to try vension, but he probably won't eat that either.
Donna, as multiple people have stated to you on another thread, your monitor will not eat anything until you can get it into a proper enclosure. For enclosure guidelines, please see The Savannah Monitor, Varanus exanthematicus
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BarelyBreathing
Erm, perhaps I haven't been here long enough, but I've never heard anybody say zero vertibrates ever. In fact, most people recommend a few appropriate vertibrates here and there. What you're not understanding is that there is a HUGE difference in nutritional value between rodents and the few vertibrates they take naturally, like frogs, snakes, lizards, and small fish.
That quote was taken directly from Jarich's post, maybe I should have quoted the other part "mouse will cause fatty liver disease". < A variation of something you have said BB
I am understanding the difference in the vertebrates, that is why it is not a sole food source.... I have always been in favor of variety including rodents. Tell members that you don't and why you don't, that is fine. To act like it is going to kill them and that one thing alone is ignorant in my eyes. Especially when others have proven that wrong over and over.. Look at many of the sources Kriminaal posted in the sticky. Even your beloved Savmon.org recommends SDZ diet which is directly based on the make up of a rodent....
I will no longer entertain this debate as apparently you know it all. Good Luck Stefan
Re: Feeding Savanna Monitors
I don't know it all, but I do know that savannah monitors don't take rodents in the wild, and there is nothing in captivity we can offer them to eat that is healthier than what they have adapted to, other than a natural diet, in which they've adapted to.
Also, if you've actually read savannahmonitor.org, you will know that they do NOT recommend the SDZ diet. They merely cover it to cover all bases. I have read all of the articals in the thread you've mentioned. No where in there does it say that offering rodents is better for the monitor than not offering rodents.
