Errr... That's not a good analogy. I know more than one smoker who has quit cold turkey doing more than 3 packs a day. It's hard, but if they are determined, they can do it, and have.

Keep in mind that I have never owned a monitor, and I really know very little about them, but based off experience with other species, I thought I would speak up.

Very few reptiles truly "tame". Just because your monitors so far have learned to "kiss" you for food and haven't bitten you yet, doesn't mean they never will bite you. It may not even be on purpose. They may just get overexcited for the meal, or they may become aggressive. But if one bites you on your face, it's going to be a big deal. That's extremely dangerous - not only for the amount of damage a full grown monitor could do to you, but for the very real possibility of you becoming seriously ill off of the bacteria.

As much as we all wish it, there is no way to get a reptile completely clean and free from bacteria. Being meticulous with sanitation around the cage and animal helps a lot, but it's not a guarantee that they will never develop harmful bacteria that they can pass on to you.

I'm not writing this to tell you that you have to change how you are feeding them. As long as you understand the risks involved, it's your choice. However, if someone else is reading this and thinking about trying to train their reptiles to "kiss" for food, they should know how dangerous it really is. It's not a game or an experiment. These are wild animals that can pass on very nasty diseases or injure a person.

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"Let's eat, Grandpa!"
"Let's eat Grandpa!"

Punctuation. It saves lives.

And as for the lack of bacteria in the sav's mouth, think dead rodents, cockroaches and crickets.

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Merlin,
What's Life Without A Little Magic!

Arrogance and Ego can be dangerous. Its always a good thing to listen to what people have to say and take it into consideration and look into it further.

I just hope for your monitors sake and yours that none is hurt, and the best to your monitors

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Randy

I plan to live forever... And so far its working

0.2.0 Ball Python (Jaxxie and Kyree)
1.0.0 Savanah Monitor (Sullivan)

So who was the most arrogant? If it was me, I really want to know! Being social has never been my strong point when I feel passionate about an issue.
Actually, I worried a lot during the day today at work that I had crossed a line last night because I am not a moderator. I don't pretend to be. In the end, I wish I had kept my mouth shut! It would have been less stressful if I had.
But, I don't view my animals as property. And, I don't see my own judgements being beyond reproach by anyone! But I will disagree, Yesterday, Today, and Tommorrow on Experimenting with live animals!

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Git'er Done!

There is no problem with passionate, opposing, discussions here. Serious keepers are often VERY passionate about what they do and often there IS more than one way to do a thing and it still be correct in serving the best interest of the animal. Even heated debate is fine as long as it is constructive in nature, serves to put forth varying veiwpoints, educate and enlighten and is not merely bashing or name calling.
There is a line and those who do cross that line will not have to wonder about it.
We will make sure that they are made aware of it.

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Merlin,
What's Life Without A Little Magic!

I did not catch this thread earlier. Sorry for not keeping up on this forum. This self-professed expert, 'Danceswithsavs' has had two savannah monitors die on them already (1st in a matter of months and 2nd <16months) and the third has been on the edge of death for over a month (and is quite possibly dead already). Unfortunately, this will mean 3 monitors (100% of the monitors they have kept) that did not make it to 10% of their possible lifespan. This was terrible, because time and time again they were told what they needed to do to properly care for them. This is something to consider if someone is to watch their videos. Something else to consider is the obesity of the monitors in the more recent videos, which certainly would have led to their demise if it is not part of the cause in the first place.

Rapid growth rates in squamates are not something to brag about. It is well documented to dramatically shorten the longevity and cause a number of problems in squmates. Since at least one of you like to see scientific evidence :

Olson & Shine 2002. Growth to Death in Lizards. Evolution. 56(9): 1867-1870

Ross & Marzec 1990. The Reproductive Husbandry of Pythons and Boas. Institute for Herpetological Research. Stanford. 270pp.

I would happy to give a great number of references for people to read concerning the topic of studies done on the 'feast and fast' cycles that many species go through that will cause those species to eat all they can and store fat for times when food will not be available. Constant feeding will cause those species, such as Varanus exanthematicus, to rapidly become obese once they reach adult size. All hatchling/juvenile monitors use the resources gained from food for growth. This is an evolutionary strategy: those that do not grow and remain a prey item for a much higher percentage of predators will probably not survive, where those that do attain adult size quickly will have less predation. Those that mature too fast, reproduce earlier, but as the above two references show, also die earlier. After they are adults, resources go into recruitment/propogation or fat.

Hope this clears up some misconceptions that may have been brought up in this thread.

Yes, I do need info on the "Feast and Fast cycle". So far my rule of thumb has been to forgo feeding for two or three days if he's looking too fat. But ,often, He has only got to have a big bowel movement to look slim again.
Right now he's ten months old and he's 21 inches long.

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Git'er Done!

Any in depth study of monitors that are found in xeric conditions with a prolonged dry season or temperate climate, where there is a winter and they will aestivate, will show that either before winter or before the dry season, monitors will consume more (feast) to put on fat before there will not be enough food or aestivate (fast). This is not only seen in many reptile species, but is also seen in some mammals (like bears).

One of the best studies that covers a monitor that lives in areas that cover both of the above examples is:
Auffenberg, W. 1994. The Bengal Monitor. University Press of Florida. Gainesville. 560pp.

Other studies by Auffenberg that show this are:
Auffenberg, W., Rehman, H., Iffat, F. & Z. Perveen. 1991a. Notes on the biology of Varanus griseus koniecznyi (Sauria: Varanidae). J. Bombay Natural History Society. 87: 26-36.

Auffenberg, W., Rehman, H., Iffat, F. & Z. Perveen. 1991b. A study of Varanus flavescens (Sauria: Varanidae). J. Bombay Natural History Society. 86: 286-307.

A recently published study also shows the importance of them gaining as much fat before the dry season:
Sweet, S.S. 2007. Comparative Spacial Ecology of Two Small Arboreal Monitors in Northern Australia. pp. 378-402 in Horn, H.-G., Böhme, W. & U. Krebs (eds.), Advances in Monitor Research III. Mertensiella 16. Rheinbach.

You will see this pattern in all monitors that aestivate or live in xeric conditions that experience prolonged dry seasons (this would apply to Varanus exanthematicus). In the first reference that I have given you will see a dramatic difference in fat cycles of Varanus bengalensis from xeric climates to those that are from mesic conditions. After you read through these references, let me know and I will get some more for you.

Insults will NOT be tolerated and have been removed!

clearly, you wish to imply that Lilly died either as a result of poor husbandry or because nobody listened to you, though i'm not clear which exactly.

but really, you are stretching way out of bounds.
Buzzy isn't As for the cause of Lilly's death, this is why one consults a real doctor rather than some goof on the internet who pretends to know things he can't possibly.

er.. you present Olson & Shine 2002. Growth to Death in Lizards. Evolution. 56(9): 1867-1870 to support your argument that fast growth shortens longevity in squamates, eh? I suppose this is to decry the really good growth rate my savs achieved, but again, you really are stretching. i realise you depend on nobody looking up this literature and just blowing the uncritical minds away with a latin phrase or a citation.
but really- let's quote the authors of your cite:
now, as we see, this mortality rate occurs in the field. so obviously it doesn't apply equally to captive monitors. did the authors mention the number one cause of death, by the way? if we are obliged to make the logical assumption that it was predation, then clearly it does not apply in the slightest to a captive reptile, does it? if we are obliged to make any assumption that isn't logical, you'll have to show me how to jump thru that hoop.

i don't much care about pythons, but here- have one about dogs- this is one you can actually click the link and find and check out!
they say:
http://132.229.50.4/~galis/pdfs/pdf30.pdf

semantic analysis of your post reveals no content pertinent to the thread. it's all smoke and hint and innuendo and speciousness and disingenuousness and fakery.

Now why we would assume from this document that it is predation that is the cause of death? The point being researched was growth rates causing premature demise. Would it not be prudent to also assume then that the those growing slower would be smaller and thus more susceptible to predation?
I don't believe they would research this and not rule out those subjects that were predated upon.

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Mike
"Never worry about numbers. Help one person at a time, and always start with the person nearest you." - Mother Teresa