Wow! This has been a long involved, very informational thread, my daughter and I have been sitting here reading it over the last few days, and discussing it. Thanks to everyone.

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Kat

Several things occur to me about this thread. If my name hadn’t been dragged into this I wouldn’t find it necessary to comment, but it has and so I feel I am entitled to state my opinion.

Varanus olivaceus is in really big trouble. There is no doubt about that. Its IUCN status, currently the same as that of the Komodo dragon, is optimistic at best. My opinion is that it should be considered in much more danger. But in general the problems facing the species are not ones that captive breeding could resolve. This lizard is an obligate fruit eater and an obligate forest dweller. Other animals with those characteristics, in Asia at least, have wings and move about in groups. When forest gets fragmented they can simply fly from one fragment to another, and as long as one animal knows where to find fruit the rest can follow. Varanus olivaceus can’t do either. To make things worse, other obligate fruit eaters feed on a very wide variety of fruits, Varanus olivaceus only eats about ten of the hundreds or thousands of fruit types available. The species disappears from areas when the blocks of forest are degraded to the extent that they can no longer provide year round supply of the required fruits. Even if the resources are available in other fragment a few hundred meters away, Varanus olivaceus cannot reach them. Once the animals have become extinct in an area the required fruits would have to be replanted and large enough populations established to provide fruits even in years when bad weather means that fruit supplies are very limited. These trees take at least 25 years to mature, some of them probably take 50 years. To make it even more complicated, most are dioecious, so only female trees bear fruit and there must be male trees within pollination distance or there will be no lizard food. What this means is that once Varanus olivaceus become extinct in a forest patch there would be no point trying to reintroduce animals until the necessary resources had been established, and that would take decades, probably close to a century. It’s just not going to happen.

There is at least one island population that will almost certainly go extinct unless it can be maintained in captivity, but collecting animals from there could not be justified unless there was clear proof that we knew enough about its husbandry requirements for there to be a good chance of breeding them. However, there are only two documented cases of captive reproduction in this species. The first was by the Dallas Zoo in the USA (one hatchling produced from a group kept for over a decade that died within a few days), the second by Avilon Zoo in the Philippines (one hatchling that survived and, last I saw, was two years old and doing very well). In both cases the events were well documented with photographs. I find it extraordinary that another zoo claims to have bred this species in large numbers but doesn’t have a single picture of an animal emerging from its egg, or even a picture of an animal with hatchling colouration. It seems they waited at least three weeks before anybody thought of taking a picture! That that could happen one year is strange, that it could happen two years running is very difficult to understand. By the way, how much did they sell those animals for? I bet it was at least $4000 each!

You don't need to explain yourself to give your opinions. You are highly respected for your research in monitors. It's awesome to have you participate.
I had no idea they were that endangered. It certainly looks very grim for their future.

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Mike
"Never worry about numbers. Help one person at a time, and always start with the person nearest you." - Mother Teresa

I hope you don't mind, but I'm kind of glad your name was dragged into this. Most of us would never have either seen or noticed this thread otherwise, and we certainly wouldn't have understood just how bad the situation is for the Varanus olivaceus.

Thank you for giving us a further explanation. The whole thing is really fascinating, and I'm (slowly) getting more information from the sources that were posted earlier.

It's scary how many animals are in this type of situation because we came along and ruined their environment. I wish there were something more we could do for them.

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"Let's eat, Grandpa!"
"Let's eat Grandpa!"

Punctuation. It saves lives.

It is a shame that we as humans do this to native creatures environments, and the majority of us just want more. I have to say this has been about the most informative thread and just makes you realize how many species there are out there that are on the brink of extinction or become extinct each day, and we dont know because we don't even know they exist to begin with.

The research is giving hope, but from what I have heard it sounds as though it is an up hill battle, 85 degrees up.

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Randy

I plan to live forever... And so far its working

0.2.0 Ball Python (Jaxxie and Kyree)
1.0.0 Savanah Monitor (Sullivan)

Wow!, I've never heard of a tree taking 25 years to mature. That must be some really sweet fruit!

Daniel, I am sure that everyone appreciates you setting the record straight. I surely appreciate it and the wonderful information that you posted about Varanus olivaceus. What is written on the internet is often taken as the truth and people often just accept it without checking out the facts. You made some outstanding points that really highlight some serious credibility issues with the initiator’s posts and claims made elsewhere, particularly about the lack of photographic evidence with hatchling colouration that only you and a few others in the world could have taken notice of.

From the limited evidence that is on hand concerning the plight of Varanus olivaceus, it is clear that the IUCN status of this species is as you pointed out: ‘optimistic at best’. That CITES and the Philippine government have not afforded this species CITES I protection raises some interesting questions about what CITES is really about and the Philippines’ commitment to actual protection and conservation of their fauna. Supposedly, the Philippine government prohibits the export of this species except for proven captive bred progeny. It was claimed earlier by the initiator of this thread that they are the only ones that can export them and they are only exported to zoos and proven breeders, but I have photographic evidence of specimens that were shipped out of the Philippines with CITES export permits to an animal dealer and these were sub-adults, definitely not captive born progeny. Sadly, the Varanus olivaceus that I came across were not anywhere near $4000 USD each, they were closer to $400 USD each, probably ended up in the hands of someone in Japan who knows little to nothing about them or any other monitor and they are most likely dead now... so much for more captive progeny

Hello Michael
For a long time there was a complete ban on the export of wildlife from the Philippines. CITES classifies animals according to their threat from international trade, rather than simply by the level of conservation concern. Because the Philippines didn't export animals very few species that occur there turn up on CITES schedules (other than generically, i.e. all Varanus are on Appendix II). It's true that the Philippines would only grant export permits for captive bred wildlife. In this case I think the authorities were tricked but I don't think it will happen again. As I understand it there is now a ban on the export of all animals that are considered endangered in the Philippines except for the saltwater crocodile.

I feel that the problems facing this animal are almost exclusively to do with habitat destruction. Personally I wouldn't object if there was some monitored trade in the animals, even if they were wild caught, just because their habitat is disappearing so fast that some collection of animals wouldn't add to the problem, and there is a lot we could learn about the animals in captivity that we will simply never discover in the forest. The monitor species that really need to be on Appendix 1 of CITES are species like Varanus melinus that are popular in the pet trade and live only on very small islands.

Falsifying captive breeding accounts is a huge setback for conservation efforts. At the moment, to all intents and purposes, the animals cannot be bred in captivity. I suspect that no progress will be made until more attention is paid to the animals' unusual dietary requirements. But anybody reading (and believing) the stuff that has been published both online and in print over the last year would probably disagree with me.

Tell them the truth! Don't keep the truth for your own personal interest!

This does not sound in the least “as extremely aggressive, even attacking”:

"Congratulations on your success with Varanus olivaceus."

Then Michael responds to your information about how rare the species is by agreeing with you and providing supporting information for skeptics who might not believe you. That also does not sound “as extremely aggressive, even attacking.”

YOUR Quote:
This species is considered one of the 4 most rare and endangered monitors in the world.
Michael’s reply:
Varanus olivaceus, as you probably already know is the most threatened species of all monitors, even more so than Varanus komodoensis. Anyone can find this information in the IUCN (International Union for the Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources) SSC (Species Specialist Committee) Red List, which determines the actual status of a speices [sic] (not CITES, which is tied to commercialism and politics). –[AMEN! --Robert's comment]

Then you say:
“the ONLY people in the world who have EVER bred this species in captivity.”
When you put words in capital letters like that, it implies that you are (or might be) calling someone else a liar. Has someone else claimed to have bred the beasties in captivity? Of course, if Avilon Zoo did so, then you would not be the ONLY people to have EVER bred the animals; and I suspect that there are other captive breeders in Germany and the U.S. based on the number of hatchlings that show up from time to time… I have no source information, but when I see so many animals coming into private hands so openly, I am inclined to think – as often happens – that a private breeder is out there who is more interested in breeding and selling than publishing and international acclaim. Perhaps.

Your next quote:
“They are CITES 2 animals and we are the only people in the philippines [sic] that have the permits to export and import wild animals (included captive bred CITES animals).”
Michael replied:
“…Advertising such a threatened species on a website where the majority of people would not be able to care for it is not very responsible.”
Okay, now that statement does sound “extremely aggressive, even attacking.” Well, maybe not “extremely,” because as published on your website, it does look like anyone with money can buy the animals. That is NOT to say it is true, only that it looks that way.

Michael asks:
“…why are the progeny being advertised on this forum and being sold off instead of being returned to suitable habitat in the wild? Selling them just gives the appearance of being more interested in money than conservation.”
He has a point. HIS question is based on the way your website and other information looks to him (and other readers). To me, it means you folks might need a good editor. Your best intentions and programmes could look wonderful in one format, but look like exploitation in another. Michael’s questions – which I shared – indicate that your communication of your message needs a bit of attention. That is not an attack, but constructive criticism (called “peer review” in the publishing end of science). Frankly, Michael did a good job showing you where you could be (or are) being misinterpreted. That is absolutely not an “extremely aggressive, even attacking” position to take. I think you folks owe Michael an editor fee.


As for your letter: Mario cannot even reply for himself? --
“Hello Michael. This is not Mario, this is his employee, Michael Perret.”
Now that sounds simply rude: Does “his majesty” Mario not respond unless it is to an (ahem) equal?? Do you see what I mean? (I am making an observation only, NOT making a judgement on Mario, whom I do not know.)

“Mario actually doesn't know who you are, and is wondering who you are in the small group of people with expertise on the species. The only people we can think of who have done any significant research on Varanus olivaceus, both in the wild and in captivity are Daniel Bennet, Bernd Eidenmüller and Mario himself.”

That paragraph sound about as offensive as any I have ever read under similar circumstances. It translates to me like this: “Mario knows everybody important, and you are not one of them, so who do you think you are?” Not only is that rude, but it also makes me wonder if Mario is an “expert” or just someone lucky enough to have a zoo where the lizards live. Yes, Dan Bennett is probably one of the (or THE) authorities on Gray’s monitors, and Bernie Eidenmueller is a leading expert on monitors in general. Has Mario heard about Dr Maren Gaulke, also one of THE authorities on Philippine monitors, or a fellow named Dr Walter Auffenberg who did a few little studies on Gray’s monitor back in the 1980s??

Then you ask:
“Where have you gotten your info on Varanus olivaceus? Who's papers have you read?” Does Michael need to pass a test presented by one of Mario’s employees before he is to be considered seriously? What if he failed to read a particular paper? Suppose he thinks Auffenberg is more of an authority than Bennett? Suppose he knows more about the work done with Gray’s monitor in Australia than does Mario? Is the examination pass/fail, or scaled from A to F? Is a re-examination allowed??

“Additionally, where in our post do we appear to be attempting to sell offspring or any other individuals of this species? We are not interested EVER in selling this species to anyone except” [when you sell them to] “the most reputable monitor breeding programs (so far zoos) who already have proven themselves as successful monitor breeders who will help in the fight to conserve olivaceus in captivity.”

Mario/Michael Perret: YOUR post comes off as extremely aggressive, even attacking, and most certainly insulting. I would appreciate YOUR being more respectful to Michael. Maybe you don’t know him, but that’s no excuse for being rude. Folks who DO know Michael can attest to his knowledge, expertise, and dedication to the study of Asiatic herpetofauna. May I suggest that in future, before you read simple questions and advice as personal attacks on you, your zoo, or your programmes, that you reread and consider your reply calmly. Yes, there are some hot-heads on reptile forums who seem to live to flame others; Michael is NOT one of them. For those of us who are interested in what you are doing – and I, for one am impressed AND interested – “thanks a bundle!”

And by the way, please tell us more about yourself!

Most respectfully yours,
Robert George Sprackland, Ph.D.,
Herpetologist and Director, the Virtual Museum of Natural History
Zoological Research Associate, National Museums of Scotland
Research Associate, National Museum and Art Gallery of Papua New Guinea
Author of “Giant Lizards” and “Giant Lizards, 2nd Edition”
Author of the forthcoming “Ecotourist’s Guide to Lizards of the World”
Author of “All About Lizards” & other titles
Author of over 80 papers on herpetology, especially varanid biology
Consultant, Varanid Lizard Species Survival Plan Group
Editorial Board Member for the varanid journal "Biawak"
Fellow, Zoological Society of London
Contributor to “Reptiles” magazine
Former Assistant Editor for “The Vivarium” magazine
&c., &c., &c.