Ok, I've been debating this for some time, as well as being concerned....I am thinking of getting rid of my sand (which most of you would like me to do) and instead replace it with sheet vinyl flooring. It would be something that is removable, can be sterilized, and reusable when sterilized. What do you think? the only concern I would have is if the vinyl would hold some of the sterilization liquid (because it is semi porous). But I think if it is rinsed well it shouldnt be a prob....
Oh and it can be gotten in some really cool or even natural looking patterns...

i am using some linoleum for my ig's enclosure. i stuck it onto the wood and then silicone it all the way around to make it waterproof and then you can easily clean it using a water and bleach solution, or just hot water. its up to you.

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Chris Kerr.

2.0.0 Dogs-Taz and Sandy
0.2.0 Cats-Whiskers and Squirelly
0.0.1 Green Iguana-Spike

The best solution is to use a natural substrate, something they would be using in their natural environment. Very simple flooring is of no benefit to anyone except the one cleaning the cage. Reptiles don't die because of ingesting sand. They've been living on it for a long time. The only difference in the equasion is us. We are not providing the proper husbandry tools if a lizard dies of impaction. Bob says it better in this thread over at Herp Habitats. It is a very excellent read on substrates. A little long but it's worth it

http://www.herphabitats.com/showthread.php?t=366

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Mike
"Never worry about numbers. Help one person at a time, and always start with the person nearest you." - Mother Teresa

[quote=kriminaal]The best solution is to use a natural substrate, something they would be using in their natural environment... Reptiles don't die because of ingesting sand. They've been living on it for a long time. ...



I understand your point of view, But dragons are not really used to sand, in their homeland down under their natural substrate is more like dry packed earth and clay, not at all very sandy. Even the 'play sand' we buy for them is relatively larger particles than any sand they may encounter in a natural environment.
In addition I would be throwing in plenty of other larger rocks and such to provide nail wear.
I appreciate your POV. I am still debating.

Hello,

Actually Mike, most captive reptiles that die from sand impaction do so because of the sand!

In most threads regarding sand and impaction, 2 species come to mind. The first is the Leopard Gecko, and the second is the Bearded Dragon.

What most people don't seem to realize is that NEITHER of these animals actually live on sand!

Leopard Geckos are actually found in the mountainous regions and sparse grasslands.

Bearded Dragons, as stated, actually reside on a clay like substrate.

When you look at captive enclosures, the entire bottom of the enclosure is nothing but sand. When did Leopard Geckos and Dragons start living in the Sahara desert?

The problem isn't unnatural substrates, its "unnatural" substrates!
I am going to start a thread this weekend regarding this topic. I think it is something everyone of us has an opinion on and could input on. I also have some long winded views I want to share and just don't have the time right now.

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I just switched to ceramic tile and I think it's great! I think slate would be nice to...I was looking at some of the other tiles but I was reading the side of the boxes and apparently some of them cary Asbestos so keep an eye out. It was one that you can snap pretty much by hand. The vinyl make sure you do not get it with a sticky back...theres also shelf liner (the non sticky non shinny stuff), reptile carpet (which I switched out of it was a pain) and all kinds of other options...you can even be creative and make your own out of grout if you want a sand look.

Sorry, I know it's true they die because of sand impaction. But what I was trying to say is their bodies can handle passing it "out in the wild". So something in our husbandry techniques that have been done in the past should be in question. A common one is that Bearded Dragons, Uros and others are desert dwellers which herpers usually think sand dwellers. Thus they eliminate the humidity from the environments. Which probably causes issues with the way their bodies can handle these substances. I've kept many different species of lizards over the past 18 yrs and I've never had one die of sand impaction. I know a Uro breeder than keeps her entire stock on sand and has never had a death. Maybe this danger is overstated. Maybe we should start a poll on how many of this have has this happen.

Oh and I look forward to your long winded views.

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Mike
"Never worry about numbers. Help one person at a time, and always start with the person nearest you." - Mother Teresa

Hello,

A poll would be grossly inaccurate. (I have reasoning for that statement. lol)

If you owned a Leopard Gecko, and had it on sand its entire life and it died at 9 years old, would you perform a necropsy? Most people wouldn't. Without a necropsy, how would they know if the Leo died of a sand impaction?

When people think of an impaction, they immediately think of the acute impaction.

(This pertains to all animals, not just Leopard Geckos. Leopard Geckos are just used as the example.)

An acute impaction is when the Leo swallows a large amount of substrate and it blocks the vital organs used to process food. (Stomach, intestinal tract, etc.) The results of this type of impaction will lead to lethargy, lack of appetite, lack of bowel movements, sand in the stool, etc.

The other type of impaction, and often the most deadly form, is the chronic impaction. A chronic impaction is the slow accumulation of sand that binds to the lining of the intestinal tract. Over time, and often years, it will create a blockage. This blockage will also have the same detrimental effects as an acute impaction. The biggest problem with this type of impaction is that when it is discovered, it is most often too late to cure.

There are no studies showing how many animals die each year as a result of impaction in the wild. It's not feasible to state that they pass it as easily as everyone thinks as we actually don't know. Its the same situation with captive species. People assume that since the animal almost reached 10 years old, it must have died from old age. They never stop to think that the captive life span of a Leo can exceed 20 years!

One of the largest problems with the internet is how fast even bad info can be spread. I have encountered countless people who say "sand is safe for Leopard Geckos, mine have been on it for 2 years with no problems". That statement is terribly ignorant because nothing has happened "yet". It doesn't mean it is or isn't safe. It just means that within the past "x" years, there have been no visible signs that the sand is causing any problems. See what I mean?

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Hey JoeKing.....I like your idea of tile, BUT....dont use ceramic, get some porcelain ones instead, and NO vinyl Tiles, sheet vinyl maybe.....the problem with ceramic is that it absorbs water, hence it will harbor bacteria easier than porcelain that doesnt aborb any water (non-vitrious). About the only vinyl tiles I would use are new, VCT (commercial) ones like you see in the grocerystore and schools. They are no longer made with asbestos. Sheet vinyl if loose laid can be removed and cleaned, if its glued down you lose the ability to clean it thoroughly and }(Like me) if you dont have another space for your herps the glue takes too long to cure and of course uncured can be toxic. I sell floors by the way.

AND...RICH, I like your points. so right on. And thats what really worries me it isnt the acute its more the chronic that goes on for years and overall shortens the life span, and of course with Bearded Dragons that normally live about 10 years... 7 years isnt bad and could indeed be "natural causes" but what if ?????.......so many ifs.

Also RICh, I'd like to get your view of my idea of sheet vinyl?

I definitely see what you're saying there Rich. Very good points. I just think that there are other contributing factors to an impaction. I'm no expert in intestinal studies but what is it exactly that keeps the sand from passing through. I've seen lizards pass whole crickets. Why not some small sand particles, and why does it build up? Could it be the reptile is already dehydrated from lack of humidity in these so called desert setups?

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Mike
"Never worry about numbers. Help one person at a time, and always start with the person nearest you." - Mother Teresa