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smartest herp |
| This is what our member has to say: ROFL!! Merlin, what have we told you about providing your ig with a PROPER diet??!?! Now that I think about it my ig was pretty ... |
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View Poll Results: smartest group of herps
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snakes
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6 |
11.32% |
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lizards
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38 |
71.70% |
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turtles
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0 |
0% |
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tortoises
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2 |
3.77% |
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crocodilians
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7 |
13.21% |
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08-28-2006, 10:45 AM
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ROFL!! Merlin, what have we told you about providing your ig with a PROPER diet??!?!  Now that I think about it my ig was pretty smart too...
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08-28-2006, 01:33 PM
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The cerebral cortex (To simply break it down) is the part of the brain which allows one to think further than just an instinctive thought. Crocodilians have been known to learn their names, feeding, routines, objects and their owners. Crocodilians have been noted to have the ability of making complexed signals using visual, auditory, chemical and tactile cues, while also taking notice to recognize any combination of signals of the previous mentioned.
Studies show that they also have a rather high neuron density within the cerebral cortex and compared with certain other vertebrates tentatively suggested by a neurobiologist as a possible explanation for their apparently high degree of complex behavior relative to their brain size.
The majority of crocodiles are highly social and seems to seek out the 'enjoyment' and company of other crocodilians. There are a few species that are considered territorial or solitary but only seem to hold true with mature adults. Pack hunting behavior has been reported in Nile crocodiles, with actions showing of relatively large masses of animals forming single or more lines to prevent movement with groups of fish; In other words, fishing. They will also herd the fish when feeding is scare by inextricably forming a semicircle across the river. Other species have also been know to pack hunt such as Cuban crocodiles and spectacle caimans.
Large masses of feeding also presents situations of a hierarchy feeding orders, which is one of the most commonly documented acts on wildlife films.
All species also show some sort of complex parental care and short-term pair bonding.
Often times, territorial disputes commonly ends in grunts and minor blows to the body.
Monitors appear to be intelligent to a certain extent as do Chelons, but until any learn math, I'm not impressed.
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Zane Neher.
The great and strong man is one who bears within his character many contradictions.
Crocodilian care.
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08-28-2006, 01:39 PM
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I'd have to say lizards as well. Particularly a keyserlingii teratoscincus (frog eye) I used to have.
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08-28-2006, 03:47 PM
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I will go with lizards.
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08-28-2006, 04:37 PM
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as paleo stated...i think there has to be some divide between lizards.... i mean a leo is cute and all but when it comes to intelligence...ummm
i reckon out of the lizards, iguanas and varanids are the only two contenders...geckos and the rest...i am sorry...no chance
some good points made about crocs there...my mind slipped em for a bit. Crocs are the most vocal of all reptiles and reptile "parents" for the longest period of time. They move their newborns once hatched to safety. But I do feel the hierarchy among crocs is to be debated( "i am bigger than you so stay back", doesn't cut it for me)
and also the pack hunting aspect...i have seen this documented but I am not sold...no intelligent team play happening to me. Just a large number of crocs keeping distance from eachother...the result is just by pure luck...i don't think it is a conscious decision on the crocs side
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08-28-2006, 07:28 PM
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...and here we GO, prepare for a long haul here, folks.
Doesn't take much intelligence to be a parent, some fish have extended care for the young. Pack hunting and even coordinated efforts aren't that hard either, sharks do it often enough with the hierarchy of feeding.
Being more vocal doesn't mean you can solve problems better either, as seen in parrots VS 6 year old children.
Also, alot of times being stubborn is mistaken for stupidity...such as seen in animals like Beagles and skinks. I've SEEN my gold skinks figure things out that geckos just can't get, same with my cousins savannah monitor.
Iguanids aren't that smart- may I present Bearded Dragons, agamas and anolis. Chameleons aren't even that smart. I seriously think the lizard title goes to Anguimorphs and their kin (Varanids and skinks, excluding those lifelesslike piles of scales known as snakes).
"Crocodilians have been known to learn their names, feeding, routines, objects and their owners" -My female gold skink looks at us when we say her name, knows me from others (and hates others), knows feeding, routines etc...
"Crocodilians have been noted to have the ability of making complexed signals using visual, auditory, chemical and tactile cues" - I guess the hyperdeveloped olfactory of broad headed skinks with their courtship is nothing...not to mention the colors of chameleons, the head bobbing of my gold skinks...Doesn't hold ground. Sensory reception in no way relates to intelligence.
"The majority of crocodiles are highly social and seems to seek out the 'enjoyment' and company of other crocodilians" - Prehensile tailed skinks make family groups.
Pack hunting and the fishing behavior is something that can be attributed to instinct and simple social cues, not necessarily problem solving.
"Large masses of feeding also presents situations of a hierarchy feeding orders, which is one of the most commonly documented acts on wildlife films" - Komodo dragons do similar thing, as do sharks.
"All species also show some sort of complex parental care and short-term pair bonding". - Broad headed skinks have temporary mating pairs. Gold skinks I've seen actually care for their young for almost exactly 3 months.
"Often times, territorial disputes commonly ends in grunts and minor blows to the body." - Sounds rather primitive to me, lol. No, simple social cues, once again.
"Monitors appear to be intelligent to a certain extent as do Chelons, but until any learn math, I'm not impressed." - I've read that monitors have a memory for those that aren't very nice to them...and skinks DO remember, as per broad headed skinks learning not to eat velvet ant females EVER AGAIN in 3 or less incidents (mostly in just one). Monitors have demonstrated simple problem solving and it is debated that they have rudimentary emotions, as observed when you make one really mad or really happy. Skinks, I've seen, can be quite moody and have some crazy mood swings and have a very wide range of body language.
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08-28-2006, 07:39 PM
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:This applies:
In a more direct scientifical approach the archipallium brain has the basic archaic behavior. Typically doing the same things over and over again.
To actually study the intelligence of an animal, mazes are just the just of it, you have to go deeper than seeing what something can do. The Cerebral cortex determines the intelligence of an animal.
It's also associated with the emotion, memory and learning of an animal. In which case, nearly all herptofauna lack this part of the brain; neo-cortex Now, we would have to go forth to neuron activity. The bigger the animal, the bigger the brain, the more active neurons you would find. Compare a brown snake to an indigo, you will find two different degrees of intelligence. We would also have to look at what a snake has to do to survive "Intelligence" and you will find several different factors. It's a hard process being reptilian brains aren't widely studied and each Genus or Species aren't exactly a priority. Certain herps may seem more intelligent because of a few trial runs on mazes, but how often are they tested, same routines, different ones, same animals on the same courses; Different course? These animals 'smarter' due to terrestrial habits? 'Smarter' because they 'know' how to find food. Maybe because they are generally larger than most tested snakes?
Too many dividends and realistically not really a must for most neurologists.
In other words, a factual answer is yet to be determined.
Outside of scientific spoof, their are visible suggestions stating the intelligence of crocodilians (eg. Coming by name, learning shape, color and sound cues identifying their keepers. stalking-sizing up ther prey, using underwater debris as holding tools, and "fishing"). It's all suggestive if you're looking for visible intelligence.
Like I said, unless they can do math, I'm not impressed.
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Zane Neher.
The great and strong man is one who bears within his character many contradictions.
Crocodilian care.
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08-28-2006, 07:46 PM
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my chams did maths once.... 1+1= 12 they never got the answer right but I was happy with their answer... i am sure many can agree! haha
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08-28-2006, 07:48 PM
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I know intelligence is more than just mazes, I was trying to keep to the implied parameters of the poll for just the shallow, stereotypical "smartness".
Also, I wasn't putting down crocs in any way at all. I was merely suppling alternative (albeit naysaying) comments about the behaviours and physiological mechanisms presented as being something other than intelligence indicators. The brain is a fickle thing, by the way...and at any rate, I can be ambiguous and suggest to you alternative definitions of intelligence or types of intelligence til the cows come home.
From a strictly biased skink own, I must say that my blue tongue does algebra, and you can't prove otherwise (lol, just kidding, it's a total drooling moron).
I motion that chelonians be stricken from the "intellectual arms race" because the connections in their jaws being INSIDE the skull limit the potential brain size increase. Larger head means larger jaws, meaning larger muscles, meaning larger brain ratio not really feasible.
...On a side note, this entire debate is silly. Crocs are Archosaurs, chelonians are probably not even diapsids (they are from procolophonians in the permian, in my opinion, as the skull of procolophs is a dead ringer for turtles, which arose just after procolophs "went extinct"). This poll is like saying " What's smarter: Birds, lizards or platypus" (two things sort of related in that both are diapsids but still distant...and one out of nowhere, a synapsid and an odd one at that!)
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08-28-2006, 07:59 PM
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These is no way that I could not say lizards! LOL My girls sure fo know how to play Jon and I to get what they want when they want it.
Debbie Miss Zak and Bam-Bam
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