Venomoids

**Microscope Jockey** · #1 11-15-2004, 08:00 PM

Ok I'm in the mood to stir things up (as usual) so lets have a nice mature discussion about:

What is your opinion of venomoids?

I got thinking about this after reading some interesting articles about hot snakes this weekend and bcause this spring I got to meet some venomoid snakes and actually got to touch a Gaboon viper.

My opinion is that there are far too few scientific studies published in peer reviewed journals on the subject of the different components and uses thereof of venom therefore practically NO information has trickled down and been translated into a format of use or interest to the general public.

**Jay DeMore** · #2 11-15-2004, 08:20 PM

This came up once before, I don't feel it is fair or healthy for the animal. Doesn't most snake venom start the digestive process? Has anyone considered the longterm effects on the snakes themselves? I say leave them as they are! If you choose to own venomous than be responsible about it, and be safe.

**Merlin** · #3 11-15-2004, 08:52 PM

This came up on another forum as well and several long term 'Hot" keepers stated that since they feed F/T the snakes do not even strike the prey and so are not envenomating it. I can see a use for venomoids for eductional purposes but as for just doing it to be able to say "Hey I'm cool! I have a poisonous snake"....
Thumbs down!

**Jem_Scout** · #4 11-15-2004, 11:18 PM

All I can say is: They scare the crap outta me!!

I have no desire to own one....

**KrokadilyanGuy3** · #5 11-16-2004, 01:24 AM

Personally, I have a mutual respect for them. The hobby, has been weirded out with several things; Morphs, hybrids, and venomoids. It's never a dull moment. Personally, I dislike hybrids more than venomoids.

Quote:

"Doesn't most snake venom start the digestive process?"

Yes. However, this doesn't mean it's a necessity. As merlin stated, most hot keepers don't even feed live animals to their prey in which case would be pointless. Snake venom must travle through the blood stream of an animal to take full affect. A dead animal has no methods to distribute the venom making it stationary which would be meaningless for the snake. Either way, I highly doubt a venomoud snake's digestive system is that much different than any other snake.

As Merlin has said, I agree they can and have served a purpose for me when it came to educational shows. Such as, Ball pythons may be able to keep the attention of a 3rd grader but to audiences which are my age, I would have to have something worth while. I have used Crotalus in a lot of my shows I have done because well, everyone is intrigued with venomous snakes. No one is let on its a venomoid and I treat them to be just as deadly. You can not substitute any other snake to be a rattler and sometimes to make points we have to cross a few lines. Plus I used venomoids because a lot of people equal distractions and distractions could mean a serious hurt. Venomoids provide 'safty' as well a topic piece.
Everyone is satisfied.
Zane

**Microscope Jockey** · #6 11-16-2004, 09:29 AM

Actually Jay and Zane, well everybody, the bit about the digestion hasn't been proven conclusively one way or another(especially after that comment about the long-time hot keepers), which was my original allusion to scientific studies and the general public. I think the reason for this is that it would take a very LONG time to do such a study and it would be very expensive and since no large commercial entity would profit from the results of such a study they have yet to do one.
Here's an example of what you'd have to do for that kind of research to give you a better idea of why it would be a huge pain:

You'd have to have a VERY large number of snakes of the same age and the same gender and it might even be helpful if they were related. The large number helps eliminate some of the problems caused by individual variability. You'd have to have a secure facility large enough to house all these beasts. As if all this weren't a big enough pain half of the test subjects would have to be sucessfully devenomated ( I think that's what you call the surgery) and fully healed, which means you'd have to find a vet willing and able to operate on say 50 venomous snakes. Next you'd have to have a staff trained to handle all the beasties, hot and not, safely since they will have to be weighed and periodically examined by a vet not to mention all the routine maintanence associated with snakes complicated by the fact that they are hot or are treated as though they are. So now can you see why nobody has done this yet? Somebody MAY be doing this but I'm not aware of it yet. Anyway thanks guys, this is shaping up into a very civil and interesting discussion

**KrokadilyanGuy3** · #7 11-16-2004, 03:21 PM

I know there's proof of venom aiding digestion such as the Proteolytic and collagenases enzymes.

What I was consisting was that a venomous snake digestive system cannot truly be that much different from another snake's. As with the studying, I would find it to be a much greater task than even what you described, being all venomous snakes have different components and different amounts of toxic and nontoxic compounds; Snakes, even in the same species release different amounts of venom with different bites (Even in food responses) and the size of the snake would determine a lot as well. I've even seen a hot atrox hit a mouse multiple times and the rodent still lived on to tell the tell, until he was manual put down. To fully decide that venom is truly a large part of digestion you would have to study more than one species of multiple ages and health issues.

What I was getting at, even with hots, most of us feed our animals dead prey items. A dead animal won't easily allow hyaluronidases to help pass the venom through the body of the prey item. Even then, a lot of snakes I have witnessed simply just grabbed the mouse and just started swallowing.
I had a friend who "Produced" his own venomoids and claimed to have been keeping a few of his first animals for over 15 years and by visually checking them out, they look great. Some of the best looking animals I've witnessed. This is what helps me decide that digestion does not solely determine aide from the venoms.
Zane

**Kikai** · #8 11-16-2004, 04:05 PM

I'll have to post the pics when I get home.

**Microscope Jockey** · #9 11-16-2004, 04:13 PM

Lets clarify what I mean when I say "proof". Proof in a scientific sense means many controlled experiments have been performed and reproduced by a number of working groups and the results are consistently the same. Additionally it helps if these results have been published in a reputable peer reviewed journal. To be fair you can never actually "prove" anything in science but you can present "irrefutable evidence". Just because a venom component has been shown to have proteolytic activity (breaks down proteins) does not mean it aids in digestion but then again it doesn't mean that it doesn't. Conclusive reproducable results must be presented. You are perfectly right Zane in your ascertation that different species at different ages would have to be studied but keep in mind that the example I gave for illustrative purposes was simplified and that all age groups and difference species would have to be in different test groups or else the study could not be considored "controlled" as age and species are both variables. Additionally in vitro and in vivo experimentation would have to occur, which would mean sacrificing test subjects under certain circumstances. There is a lot of information available at the moment regarding the molecular classification of different venom components but that is because most research regarding venomous snakes is aimed at better understanding what the components are and what they might do to a human that is bitten with the ultimate objective being the production of antivenins and pharmaceuticals based on snake vemon components. So to reinterate my original opinion: there just is not enough information available either way regarding venomoids in relation to their digestion and other aspects of thier health after surgery.

**KrokadilyanGuy3** · #10 11-16-2004, 09:23 PM

Agreed.

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