Recently there was a thread which led to the start of a very interesting and extremely controversial discussion, of which I seemed to be in the minority! Unfortunately a new member worded his/her posts very critically and aggressively and the entire thread was removed. I would like to believe that it IS possible to discuss controversial topics in a civil manner on this forum and therefore would like to try to re-open the subject of enclosure size.

Please do not post in this thread if you cannot control your emotions!
1) Think before you post!
2) Keep emotional distance
3) Do not criticise anyone else’s set-ups
4) Do not pass judgement on the degree of love/respect someone has for their animals
5) Do not criticise other countries’ laws or policies. (“different” does not equal “stupid”)
6) Please use measurements in centimetres or feet/inches (some of us = like ME!! have no idea how big a 10, 20 or 30 gallon tank is!!)

This entire thread will be deleted immediately if one single post is out of line (administrator’s discretion!)

THE SUBJECT: Should there be international guidelines on minimum enclosure sizes for snakes? Why/Why not? If so, how would you calculate this? Should it be snake species-specific? Should there be ownership restrictions (permit requirements) on extremely large species: burms, retics, etc.? (as exist in some countries already.)

PLEASE NOTE: this post is discussing SIZE of enclosures ONLY -- NOT plastic vs. wood, NOT rack systems vs. display, NOT newspaper vs. natural substrate.
For the purpose of this discussion, we will assume that proper food, temperature gradient, humidity, hygiene and hide boxes are provided to the animals.

Here in Switzerland, reptiles are considered “wild animals”. They fall under different restrictions than domesticated pets: i.e. dogs and cats. The Swiss law that herpetoculturists must abide by (or risk having reptiles as pets banned and their animals confiscated) states that the enclosure for 1-2 snakes must be measured by the length of the animal in centimetres multiplied by 0.75 (L) x 0.5 (W) x 0.5 (H): for arboreal species x 0.75 high (maximum 2 meters)
(PS - the German recommendations are larger)

(PPS – if anyone is interested in the Swiss enclosure size requirements for other herps, I can provide those as well.)

To translate that into sizes we can relate to:

A juvenile ball python (approx. 60cm) (22.8”) would require an enclosure 45cm long x 30cm wide x 30cm high) 17.7” x 11.8” x 11.8”
An adult ball python (approx. 122cm) (48”) would require an enclosure of 91.5cm x 61cm x 61cm (36”x 24”x 24”)

As was calculated in the other thread: an adult retic (25ft) would require an enclosure of about 19’x 13’x 7.3’

What is your opinion?

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Andrea

I, personally, respect the Swiss laws and agree with them. Although all of our animals are sedentary during the day, they become extremely active at night. They have hide-boxes on the warm and cold side of the enclosure and, therefore, must not choose security over temperature comfort. Although they have no “need” to roam (search for food, mates, escape unclean conditions or predators) they choose to come out of their safe hiding places every evening to move around and/or climb. (I find my BP and Rainbow Boa in the tops of their branches and I find the Green Tree Python babies moving through their branches, their water bowls and along the ground) Every morning and all day long, however, the BP and Rainbow are hidden completely under their hides and the GTPs are coiled behind the leaves on their perches.

How much “roaming room” is enough? Is it OK to very small enclosures if the snakes are taken out a few times a week to cruise the furniture or floor of the house/apartment? Or is there any real need for "roaming room" at all?

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Andrea

I believe that if there are regulations concerning herps, any regulations, that you should abide by them. We already have a bad enough reputation as a group as it is. To outsiders we are all criminals and dope dealers (Watch the news!) who keep dangerous animals and allow them to escape and endanger the public. Every time it comes on the news that someone was keeping illegal animals or had one escape it's another strike against us. If you don't like the regulations try and get them changed.
On the other hand I am not so sure that I want the government regulating me anymore than they already do. In my life I have seen far too many regulations proposed "for the sake of the animals" that (1) have absolutely NOTHING to do with the sake of the animals and (2) that were completely outlandish due to the fact that the people in charge of coming up with these regulations had absolutely no idea what they were talking about. A prime example is several cities proposing bans on "all constrictors" due to "public safety" concerns. While they are in their minds thinking large pythons and boas this also bans cornsnakes.
Another problem is using a generic term of "snakes". One formula for all snakes is not reasonable. You would need comparatively bigger cages for some of the smaller more active snakes than you would for larger more lethargic species like large pythons. And who will be responsible for making these regulations. Just because someone is a veterinarian does not mean they have the vaguest idea of the care requirements of an animal outside their experience.
But back to the main topic. I can see both sides. I have large display enclosures for some of my animals because the enclosures are just that, decorative displays in my living area. This does not make the animals living in them any more or less special to me than any of the rest of my snakes that live in sterilyte boxes. As long as the snake has enough room to move around and all their necessary conditions are met I see nothing wrong with using the boxes. I have never seen any difference in health or behavior between snakes kept either way. The fact that breeders have kept and bred various species in these situations for years shows that these types of enclosures are adequate for the health of the animal. If it wasn't they either wouldn't breed at all or the clutches would be reduced. When you are making your living selling animals neither option is acceptable. You have to do everything you can to maximize your yield.
Something that many don't think about is that unlike other species, snakes do not have to have room to stretch out. By nature of their basic physiology they bend around the corners! Very seldom do you see a snake laying around stretched out fully.

And as far as the snakes being very active at night. In my opinion what most are doing is searching for that one little way out of the enclosure that you have overlooked!

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Merlin,
What's Life Without A Little Magic!

This is why I think it's important to open this topic up on a forum with as many members and guests as this one. Since most governments aren't initiating regulations, I would be VERY interested in hearing some experienced opinions by members here ... what sort of minimum size guidelines would you propose for the new owner?
Do you think herpetological societies should become more pro-active in recommendations before governments do?
Is this subject too controversial? I don't want to cause trouble, just stimulate a discussion on a subject I often wonder about.

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Andrea

Well,they do have other formulas for different snakes,but it isn't really much different!
For snakes which like to climb,like corns,they say you need to multiply the hight by 1m.
What Andrea mentioned is only for ground living snakes!
I often wondered how they come to think of those numbers as a minimum size! Are these made by biologists,vets or pet store keepers ,the WWF?!
But I'm absolutely fine about those sizes,because I love large enclosures for own pleasure,because it is something nice to look at.
I think it is very hard to find an answer of how big a snakes enclosure really needs to be.

For the new owner I would suggest to put up a really nice terrarium,beacuse I find it much nicer,and if the new owner is a child,he/she will have much longer intrest in the snake as if it would be in a rack;that's my opinion!
But how big an enclosure really needs to be,I think we never can answer that!Only a snake could!

This is an off-topic remark, feel free to delete it.

Until the trolling incident it was never necessary to state rules to answer threads and there were 4,000 of them.
I understand where you are coming from but I do hope this does not become a requisite here, specially because I've read threads where those rules meant nothing - people were emotional, policies were labeled as stupid and set ups were criticized, but it was all done with honesty, respect and politeness for everyone involved.

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Wish list: Blue Tongue Skinks and Uruplatus =)

Those were not intended as rules but hopeful suggestions of behavior. Only Admins and Mods can set or enforce rules. Andrea was only trying to be sure that this discussion does not get out of hand again. In PM she and I discussed, and agreed to, the fact that this would have been an informative and interesting topic if conducted properly.

Knowing the caliber of our excellent members I see no reason that this cannot happen.

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Merlin,
What's Life Without A Little Magic!

FYI,,,,the rules were stated since day 1 of Herpcenter. ALL members were required to read and accept the TOS or Terms of Service prior to registering.

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Ken
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem." -- Ronald Reagan

Ok, from someone who is very new to having an interest in herps...I feel that all living things that are kept in captivity should have enough room to move and live comfortably. That might mean different sizes for different creatures. If one does their research on the lifestyles of their herps, then the enclosure should match the herp.

Steven

Firstly, thank you Steven and Jacky for your comments on the topic.

Jacky, the numbers I posted were taken directly from the "Tierschutzverordnung" for Switzerland -- you can check it under http://www.bvet.admin.ch/tierschutz/...d=00372_de.pdf

I believe the numbers you are referring to come from the "Mindestauforderung (10.1.97)" from Germany. (Actually they state that some arboreal species should be multiplied by 1.5 -- up to a max height of 2 meters.)

The Swiss regulations were made (in the late 70s) by scientific representatives of Zoo Basel, Zürich and Bern in cooperation with members of the Washington CITES Agreement: world-leading zoologists and herpetologists.

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Andrea