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snakes "becoming" venomous |
| This is what our member has to say: im 90% sure of this, but are some of north americas snakes "becoming" venomous. this is true for garters, hognose, and a few other North ... |
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01-05-2005, 05:24 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2004
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snakes "becoming" venomous
im 90% sure of this, but are some of north americas snakes "becoming" venomous. this is true for garters, hognose, and a few other North American colubrids.
does any one know how long it would take for them to develope venom glands, hollow fangs and what not. ive been thinkin that all of these snakes are very common (especially garters). I hope it will be in my lifetime, cause there is only 1 venomous snake in michigan. so it would be cool to have more (i think that anyway)
and how recent is this knowledge/discovery 
just thought this would be an interesting subject to discuss
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01-05-2005, 06:12 PM
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It's not impossible that some snakes could become venomous, but it would take thousands and thousands of years of evolution to occur.
There is a debate over hognoses, whether or not they are venomous, because they have a strongly alkaline saliva, mainly due to their most common diet in the wild of frogs so that they can neutralise the very mild acidity on the skin, but they are not venomous as such. They are rear-fanged snakes, and if bitten, a human may react in the same way they would if they were bitten by a wasp - a bad reaction might occur if an allergy were present, but otherwise not a lot should happen.
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01-05-2005, 06:24 PM
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i knew about rear fanged snakes
ive just been hearing that some snakes saliva is beginning to produce a VERY mild venom
i was looking at the snakes in michigan a while ago and it said that there were chemicals in northern water snakes saliva that can cause redness and itching
ive also heard the same is true for garters
hog noses arent rear fanged, the only rear fanged snakes live in the eastern hemisphere, boomslangs are rear fanged snakes, and they live in Africa, which most other rear-fanged do.
most rearfangeds are frog eaters, which hognoses are, but they still dont have fangs and venom glands, therefore they are not "venomous" but do have mild poison in their saliva
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01-05-2005, 08:13 PM
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The development of hollow fangs and venom glands would be a major change. It would take thousands of years for this to develop. Certainly not in our lifetimes.
Hog noses are actually classified as rear fanged. They have enlarged teeth used for puncturing a puffed up toad to make it easier to swallow. The teeth are not hollow but do have a sort of groove in them that allows the saliva to enter the animal.
If an animal has poison in its saliva it is considered venomous but not necessarily deadly.
I have heard statements regarding snakes considered harmless as being in the process of developing venom but it seems to be a very controversial theory. The fact that compounds in the saliva are just now being discovered doesn't meant they haven't been there all along.
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i was looking at the snakes in michigan a while ago and it said that there were chemicals in northern water snakes saliva that can cause redness and itching
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The reaction your talking about is more like an allergic reaction.
I know a man who has the same thing happen whenever he is bitten by colubrids like cornsnakes. Within a couple of days it disappears.
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01-05-2005, 08:24 PM
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Actually, there are a few rear fanged snakes here in the US.
I wrote this dealing with hognoses but it pertains to my knowledge of Thamnophis and Nerodia, some of my favorite snakes. I thought this would fit here.
Everyone that I know who has worked and studied this species has not found any evidential trace of any vasoactive autopharmacologic compounds, that I am aware of. I've seen the same reactions from a bite from several different species, this doesn't conclude them to be venomous; In fact it's stated to be bacterial. If the snake was truly venomous than it would take the same affect on each one of us. Though, the 'venom' is said to be worked through the gums, like our saliva, this would be you would pretty much get the same reaction from anyone bitten and chewed on. I know several, including myself to advocate this theory to nothing but failure. Several times from several individuals and species/Ssp. Now I'm not saying they aren't venomous if you include basically everything else on this planet which has an LD50 (Some stronger than others) then sure, I'll agree with you. Speaking of, venom is said to have not been evolved into anything more than what it is. And each venomous snake known, including out rear fangs, has caused some sort of failure in mice, however, hognose 'venom' to date has not been recorded to have any destructive issue to any rodent that was injected. Now amphibians, on the other hand, has had some fun times with these injections, however very few died and any reaction was recorded several hours after each bite. Not a very productive venom, even for it's native prey. Plus we all know how sensitive amphibians are.. I just can't buy the fact they are venomous, because if I did, I'd have to buy the fact all the colubrids are venomous, and if I did that I'd have to buy all things which produce an LD50 are venomous and if I did that what fun would it be in any of this? If hognoses are venomous, and he factuates his actual studies to it, then I will believe Hogs are truly an exception when it comes to venom.. Heck, even gilas and beadeds follow the delivery system rule..
I do respect his work and I enjoy reading it, however, until proof is presented, I just can't go against the proof I have witnessed.
This was directed towards a Fry follower and he knows my opinion on his work, which Im not saying they are indeed wrong, just hard for me to believe.
Every snake that is in fact proven to be venomous, front and rear fang alike do in fact posses a Duvernoy's gland. As for evolution, it's not improbable. However, with claims (Fry) venom is untouched by evolution so an animal jumping from having anticoagulants to having vasoactive autopharmacologic compounds would be a bit of a leap if you ask me. Basically, it's who and what you follow. Some say Hog noses are evolutions next step (Or step back) to venomous reptiles while others say it's just for popping toads.
Your answer is basically and good as mine.
Zane
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