Hi,

You guys are so lucky !

According to a 1992 law (still in force in Portugal) it is forbidden to keep snakes from the Boidae family in Portugal, pursuant to a CITES regulation.

As I found that out, I was still confident that I could have a Ball Python (Python regius) in the future (couple of years), since they´re (now) from the Pythonidae family. However, I found out that the authorities understand the following:

- when CITES regulations (that gave rise to the Portuguese law) was published, the Pyhtonidae were considered to be a sub-family of the Boidae. Hence, the same law "protects" (meaning, forbids) not only the Boas but also the Pythons...

Furthermore, the enclosure has to be 2 x 2/3 x 1/2 the snakes´s maximum size in adult ( so, for a 48" Sinaloan, it should be 96"x32"x24" ) and you need a special authorization by the Municipality and an inspection by the Municipal vet - that, I bet, only deals with cats and dogs and is afraid of snakes...

So, basically, they don´t want you to (legally) keep snakes.

It´s soooooooooooo difficult to be a law binding citizen around here

O.K. so I am little confused. You state that they are forbidden, but that you can have them with a special authorization and inspection from the vet.
So this might offend people, which I am not trying to do, I agree with some of it and disagree also. I think there are certain snakes that should be by "permit" only. Then again I think they are a little overboard with the ball python and the smaller species. I have this opinion due to the fact that I live in a military town and tend to see the younger military boys with the attitude of oh cool, lets get the burmese, or the retic, and so on and powerfeed it, get it huge, house it in a ridiculously small enclosure, only handle it when my friends are around so I look cool attitude. Most of these people are not aware what they are getting into, and that these snakes can be dangerous when not handled correctly or by someone with very little experience!
Then again you have the pet store people who sell them to anyone and some of these people are not made aware that they are going to get huge and require a lot of care and such! when they do get too big (usuallly within a year) they are dumped somewhere else. So on that aspect I agree with the permit, to me it shows that you are aware of what you are getting and are willing to meet the needs of the snake. Now for the actual law abiding citizens and the ones who are aware, and are willing to meet needs, it's kind of a pain in the butt. Now for over here I would support that if they limited it to size of the snake by permit only.
As most of you know I do not keep the huge snakes that come in here for that long, they are transported somewhere else. The big reason for that is they usually come in with the personality of Jack The Ripper
I know this is a touchy subject and I hope I did not offend anyone as that was not my intention! I would also support iguanas by permit only as they are also sold under the "great pet for a kid". I have had lots of them come in and still have a ton and I have yet to meet one that I would consider great for a kid

Well said Nicole ...Opinions are always welcome and I think more laws should be put in place as well.

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MARSHA

:D I'm smiling because I have no idea whats going on!

Very well said Nicole, I'm all for tighter restrictions.

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Ken
" The United States Marine Corps......sure we are a department of the Navy,,,,,,we're the MENS department "

Nicole,

According to the Portuguese law, you need a special authorization/permit and inspection from the Municipal vet to keep any snake. Keeping Boids (including Pythons) is forbidden (so, you cannot buy in them in Portugal and consequently no permit is given).

In general terms, I fully agree with your opinion. I´m also in favour of permits in some cases. For instance, in Portugal, you need a special permit to keep the so-called "dangerous dogs", which includes (but not limited to) all Mastiffs, Pit bulls, Dobermans, Rottweillers, etc. In this cases a "character evaluation" of the owner of the dog is also done before granting the permit - in practice, it does not work that well, but the law is there...

As regards the snakes Portuguese law, what I do not agree with, is the ratio, meaning the reasoning behind the law.
The law just copied a CITES regulation that, as you know, is for endangered species, limiting or forbidding the import of some animals. Now that has nothing to do with captive raised snakes, the ones we find in the pet shops (at least in Portugal).

As regards the caging/enclosures, the example I gave above is for keeping 1 to 4 snakes (in the same enclosure, I mean). That´s what the law says.

Even in the cases where that is possible, I could agreed with that size of enclosure for 4 snakes, but it seems rather exaggerated for keeping just one.

So, in my case, to legally keep my Sinaloan (obtaining the permit), I would have to keep it in a 96"x32"x24" enclosure. Not even my 210gallon reef tank would be big enough !

The problem is always the same: the ones that make the very specific laws laws (in this case about keeping snakes) have no practical experience whatsoever. In most cases, they are not even interested in asking...

Welcome to the world of reptiles....

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Colleen

Ok, that clears things up a little for me. As far as the dogs go I think that should be put into force here! Anywhere you go there will always be people who get animals that have no business having them, be it dogs, cats, reptiles, etc.
As far as the milksnake I do think the cage requirements are a little excessive! I have also never heard of a milksnake being potentially dangerous, but then again I could be wrong! what I mean by dangerous is life threatening. I think the laws and permits should obtain to the dangerous species for the owners sake and the people who live around that person and not to mention the snake.
As far as the ones who make the law you are right, they have no idea, for the most part. The year before last I sat in on a city council meeting when they proposed, no snakes over 5 feet, no caimen, alligators, crocs, venomous species of any kind which included tarantulas, scorpions, fire belly toads or any frog or toad that had a toxic secretion of any sort. Now mind you this was for city limits only, which did not affect me, according to their proposal any one in the county including myself could keep 500 crocs, millions of venomous snakes and tons of the bigger dangerous snakes, and house them any way I felt like. Yikes.......
Needless to say the proposal did not pass as we all know that corsnakes and many other of the popular species can get bigger than 5 feet. Nowhere in this proposal did they mention the iguanas and they can be dangerous themselves.The only thing most cities will base their laws from are from the bigger surrounding cities, in my instance Seattle, and the personal lack of knowledge and fear from the ones who are proposing the laws. I must also say we had one city council member who kept a ton of tarantulas, which was probably also a saver for us. They are now in the process of re writing the proposal to specifically state, no caimen, crocs, alligators, venomous snakes, or snakes that exceed 12 feet without permit. I agree with that to a point I would like to see the iguanas in that and the snakes dropped to around 10 feet, which I know would limit some of the boas and pythons.
I only tell you this story because it is same almost everywhere, he who makes the rules and regs really have no idea about reptiles, just the quick AHH snake! Run, reaction. We are a small group of people comparitively speaking to the rest who keep the "normal" pets and the only opinion the majority of people will have about us is that we are weird, strange, and must have been dropped on our heads as an infant. It is the few who dont properly keep or handle their reptiles that ruin it for the rest of us! You know you see the ones on the news "Huge snake kills keeper", everybody thinks then outlaw all snakes, nobody stops to wonder why that person was handling an easy two or three man snake when noone else was around. Which is clearly to me irresponsible ownership that gives the rest of us bad names .
I do feel your pain and am sorry there are absolutely no boas or pythons allowed as there are many species that are great pets. On the other hand I stop and think and wonder hmm...... how many snakes have not been abused or improperly housed or improperly handled due to the laws. That is definately a subject of deep thought, which it is too early for me to think that much at the moment. LOL

Nice statement, Nicole. Well said.

This one made me laugh

The main thing about laws (and, I confess, I work with them all day long.. ) specially the ones regarding prohibitions and the need of permits is that you can only choose one of two ways: either you have "logical" - but more limited - restrictions and then people fulfil them and, if not, the Authorities are able to enforce the fulfillment OR or you choose to have lots of (somehow illogical) restrictions and conditions and people do not fulfill them nor the Authorities have the means - and sometimes the will - to enforce them.

Its as simple as that.

In this case, the law is very restrictive but not fulfilled.

And then the scenario is that nobody (at least the ones I know) keep a milk, or a cornsnake in a 220g + enclosure and - I imagine... - if they want to have a Ball Python, they probably just drive 200 miles, buy them in Spain and bring them in.

Its wrong, but its the way things are done. And it should not and did not have to be like this, in my opinion, if only the law had been well done and adjusted to the "real life".

I agree with everything you just said! Very nicely stated!

Let me just add that we are the only European country with this kind of sillyness. To be brutally honest, some days I think it's better this way. Due to it's hush-hush nature and to the fact that one must go to great lenghts to get one, the vast majority of keepers are carefull and responsible.

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Wish list: Blue Tongue Skinks and Uruplatus =)