I am 100% with you on the stewardship issue. I believe it is wrong to willfully destroy for the sake of destroying.

Seeing it from the perspective of a Christian, I believe the rattlesnake roundups are wrong. The willful, blatant killing of vast amounts of snakes for the sake of exploitation, "entertainment", and fear goes against what my Bible teaches. My beliefs state that man is to rule over this planet responsibly.

We definitely have screwed things up, but I don't think it is as bad as some people say it is.

The problem with the different views is that one group sees animals as "equals" to humans, believing they have the same rights as people. I see it as animals are subject to humans, providing food, clothing (I love a nice leather pair of shoes), companionship (dogs are unequalled in this task), entertainment, and study to understand them more. However, exploitation is not part of that stewardship.

In the end, we all love animals. I don't want us to be separated by "WHY" we love them or how we see them.

Thank you for your kindness to me. I know that with my beliefs, I am in the minority in the world of "animal lovers".

I guess I see a vast middle ground between regarding animals as the moral equal of humans and seeing them as resources to be managed. I would never keep a human as a pet, would not eat a human, would not make a purse from a human skin, etc. But I see animals as having a greater moral standing than, say, mineral resources or even the living forests and oceans we depend on for our lives. Simply because they are capable of feeling pain, because (in some cases) they seem to share some forms of emotion (or maybe proto-emotion) with us, and because in some cases they appear to even have consciousness, I feel that animals morally are owed a certain type of treatment from human beings (who are capable of forming moral codes of conducts and considering the ethical implications of our actions) -- beyond simply wise stewardship. On the other hand, I do consider us to BE animals, and to be part of the food chains of our environment, and to depend on other living things for our survival. So I do eat meat (though I am beginning to work harder to try to get meat from healthier sources -- healthier for my family and healthier/more humane for the animals being raised and slaughtered), I will buy leather, I do keep pets, etc. So I'm somewhere in between the extremes you described. And I think many, many people are.

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Amy

The funny thing is that I don't think a thing about killing roaches and water bugs and spiders by spraying poison in my house, but don't agree with the ratttlesnake roundups.

I, myself, am not sure why this is. Perhaps the larger the brain, the more value I put on the animal - I don't know. But, I think we all put animals into different categories - maybe even by size?

I would gladly destroy an entire colony of fire ants in my yard, but would feel bad killing a racoon who took up residence in my attic.

Hmmm, maybe this line of conversation needs it's own thread since this one has taken a rabbit trail - but I am not complaining about that as this is great conversation

I think it's true that we all take a certain amount of responsibility when it comes to our stewardship of the environment. But like you said Knox we all probably also have a large grey area that we tread upon. I mean there's the commercial with the monk who saves the tort, the spider and the fish then blows his nose and kills the virus bacteria. That's my basis as well. God gave us rule over the wildlife but it's also up to us to keep them from harm.

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Mike
"Never worry about numbers. Help one person at a time, and always start with the person nearest you." - Mother Teresa

Im with Knox here. I own Ts, but hate spiders. Maybe because I know the 4 I have wont cause me to die, unlike others out in the wild.

Cant use a human for that cause its looked down on, but I can bet you human skin, bones, and flesh have been used for many things down the years, and is taboo now.

From earlier about Nature not being strong or what ever....
Nature has power to. I have watched it, there was a fire from a car down at the end of my street. A good patch was burnt and had been soaked with oil, gas and tire crud. Well 2 weeks or 3 later, that was the greenest grass on the whole block. So dont under estimate the power nature has. Thats why they burn off prairies. It grows back even better than before.

Yes our climate has changed alot of the last years. But I hate to tell every one who thinks its cause there is a hole in the ozone. there cant be one. hate to tell you, but no, wed all be dead if there was...solar winds would rip it, gamma rays would fry us. even saddam if he was still in his hole it would fry him. But yes stuff melts. Its ice, lol, it melted durning the ice age, and it will keep on melting.

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I take bugs outside and let them go, lol! But I did hire an exterminator to get rid of the mice when my son was an infant -- it was too much watching one run across the carpet my little boy was crawling on! I think you're right, Knox, that these decisions are often ones that we make without complete consistency, because otherwise life becomes pretty hard! I, too, would exterminate fire ants in my yard, because they make life dangerous/unpleasant for my family (we don't have them here now, but I would). And I was willing to kill the mice, because of the health threat they pose by their mere existence in my house. I don't kill spiders and stuff because they don't hurt anything -- but if I accidentally step on one, I don't feel too awful, either (I do regret it, but it's hard to avoid). If I mow a toad with the lawnmower, it upsets me a lot! But I still mow the lawn. And I drive my car, even though I hit and killed a dog once (as a child, I swore I would never drive a car -- somehow, that all changed at 16...).

It can be very hard to juggle ethical ideals with all of the choices we face in everyday life. I do my best to handle as many of them well as I can, but I know I'm imperfect. My religious beliefs don't include any supernatural beings, but I do feel that as the only (or perhaps one of just a few) creature on the planet that can consider our actions and the consequences we cause, we bear a large responsibility for being as wise as possible when it comes to the damage we can cause to the natural environment. I agree that Nature has an amazing ability to regenerate itself, and that life is a pretty unstoppable force -- it seems to fill in any void on the planet, in one form or another. But from what little I know, I can see that tiny changes can have unknown, far-reaching consequences down the line -- and I don't want the consquences to be ones that make it tougher for our own species to survive.

But humans have already gone past a point of no return, I fear. We can try to soften the blows we cause, but now that we have created a world of Ziplock bags, disposable diapers, soft drinks, SUVs, lead-acid batteries, etc., I don't see us giving those things up until we have to, for the most part. I don't think the Earth can't recover from what we are doing, but I am a little worried that part of its recovery will include a drastic reduction in the number of human pests that swarm over it, consuming voraciously...

Now on to my Diet Coke, lol! (said the well-meaning hypocrite...)

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Amy

Hey, MoogleBass, I don't want to get into a big debate, but if you really don't believe that there's a hole in the ozone layer, you might want to read up on it. This site gives a lot of good info (including a section on skeptics and arguments refuting them): http://www.wunderground.com/education/holefaq.asp

Is it possible you're confusing the ozone layer with the Van Allen belts?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Allen_radiation_belt

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Amy

Are wild caught animals ok?....i kill bugs....there is no ozone layer....mmm diet coke!

hahahaha amzing...gotta love it!

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Don't be jealous the voices only speak to me...

www.herprecon.org

We have a great "Family" here.

I love all you guys and gals

I will add this. I think it is awful that I can't eat the fish I catch in the TN river since it is too polluted. I think it is horrible when I see trash on the side of the road. I would love to have clean river and lake water, but that means cutting out boating, industry along the river, pesticides and fertilizers for golf courses along water ways, and much more.

I do love my conveniences, but they come at a high cost. I sometimes wonder if it is worth it, if we would be happier in simpler times with a cleaner environment. But, that would mean no internet, no computers, no cars, no air conditioning, no television...

second that... group hug?

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Don't be jealous the voices only speak to me...

www.herprecon.org