Hello Craig,
Thank you for joining HC and responding. Seeing as I am the one who made the statement I should respond. I was following a thread on dendroboard where a member commented on a phoenix worm protruding from a dart frog (which it turned out not to be, but a botfly or similar parasite). I was lead to believe that is was a phoenix worm and that there was a threat. I due believe they are a valuable supplemental feeder and am very excited that a new feeder is now readily available, in a variety of sizes. I also will be the first to say that they have contributed to breeding success in a few hard to breed species.

Hello,

Welcome to the HC Network Craig.I am curious what your response is to this:

Here is a link to one article about this: (Not the one I quoted) Article 1

Have you genetically modified these larvae you sell or do you just captive breed the Black Soldier Fly?

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I too am curious to your response to the quote, and I definatley wont be feeding them to my herps.

Hello,

My true concerns with this insect are your studies. Six months is a pretty short time span. If all new products where only tested for 6 months, its very possible that most humans would be dead.

What, if any, are the potential side effects of feeding these insects? What studies do you have to back up that these things don't cause any long term illnesses like kidney or liver damage? I would speculate that these bugs have a pretty nasty acid content in their stomachs since they eat rotting corpses and fecal matter.

Do they have any natural bacterias that could have an impact on the health of the reptiles? Has there been any studies testing for bacteria? (I am sure you must have tested with the past studies.)

I am not knocking your product but I wouldn't feed anything to my herps that I don't know anything about. I may as well just feed insects from my yard if I were to do that.

There have been reported cases where the larva of this fly has somehow gotten inside humans and infested them. This may not be a common occurence, but what knowledge do you have of this and how can we avoid it happening to us?

Will these insect readily breed? Will the larvae pupate or do they die off before maturing?

What about escapees? If they do mature, will we experience a problem with these flies like that of fruit flies that escape and breed?

I am a curious guy and the more we know, the better a decision we can make if we want to give these flies a try.

Also, what are the cost of these insects?

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Gosh...just reading some of this gives me the shudders....and I like bugs LOL...Lyn

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Warmest Regards from Lyn

Hello Rich,

I'll answer your questions as best I can. I do this even though you very much seem to be looking for problems that are not there. I can only hope you will answer my questions, too.

Black soldier flies have been found in carrion on occasion. but it's rare. They don't do well on carrion and usually cannot compete with the blow flies who consume the carcass much faster.

Enteric myiasis is not true myiasis (invasion of live tissue by fly larvae) and is EXTREMELY RARE. It is a medical curiosity and not a serious health issue. This insect is very common all across the southern half of the U.S. yet I have never seen or heard of this occurring. This can only happen if you eat the larvae. About your "quote"--what is the source of this and who were you quoting?

My culture of Phoenix Worms has been selected for my husbandry conditions over several generations but has not been "genetically modified" in the current sense of the word.

Six months was the time frame for a 6-month study where hatchling leopard geckos were fed only Phoenix Worms, nothing else. This is really quite a long time for such an extreme test, and no deficiencies or problems showed up. Overall, we have been sending Phoenix Worms to various breeders and hobbyists for evaluation for over 5 years, and now they are being used by 1000's of hobbyists. Except for one poorly documented claim of parasitism (by one hobbyist), we aren't aware of any health problems. To the contrary, there are many reports of Phoenix Worms improving health or reproduction in various animals.

Why do you suspect liver or kidney damage? Our insects have never been in the wild and are fed on a fresh grain-based diet. To put it into perspective, do you have studies showing that mealworms or crickets NEVER cause any harm? There can never be such a report on any insect because it's impossible to prove a negative.

Escaped adults are not a problem. In the unlikely case of a fly maturing, they will go to a window and beat themselves to death trying to get outdoors. They are an "outside" insect and will not enter a dwelling on their own. They couldn't breed in your house anyway.

Phoenix Worms sell for $5-$7 retail per cup of 100 (large or medium) or 150 (small or extra small). We also sell them at The Phoenix Worm Store on-line (www.phoenixworm.com) in a 4-cup pack for $23.00 and Priority Mail shipping is free.

Craig Sheppard, Ph.D.
Insect Science Resource

I have no real feelings one way or another towards this insect as a feeder but doing a quick Google search I found this, which leads me to suspect that these flies do eat carrion in the wild with some degree of regularity. I don't claim to be any expert in either insects or Forensic Science but if the insect is used as a tool to estimate time of death then I feel they must be fairly common carrion eaters. This was from the third article listed.

What I am finding on the web does not seem to agree with some of the statements made about carrion. Another site I looked at shows them as a useful insect for reducing fecal matter around chicken coups. I did however find information that they are high in protein and calcium so some of what I found confirms some of the statements. I guess for me the jury is still out.

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0.1.0 Bearded Dragon (Dundee)
1.0.0 Chow/mix Dog (Simba)
1.0.0 Russian Hamster (Bear)
1.1.0 Parakeets (Little Tweet and Feathers)
0.1.0 Long hair gray calico cat (Opal)
0.0.3 Red-eared slider turtles (Mommy, Daddy, Robbie)
0.0.16 Fishy Friends - misc. tropical fish

Personally I won't try anything unless I know all the risks involved. I'll wait till the worms have been out on the market longer before I decided whether or not to use them.

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http://dragcave.net/user/manhirwen

They have been out for 5 years on the market...I'm thinking about orderign them and giving them a go with the Leopard Geckos. I just need some money to get them with lol.

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Hello Craig,

I want to appologize for how my post came across. I honestly had no opinion either way of these feeders when I posted that. Up until this thread was started, I had never heard of Phoenix Worms. (I knew what the Black Soldier Fly was though.)

I was asking the questions that I would need answered before I would even consider giving these worms a try. I currently have 16 reptiles that are insectivores/omnivores.

My post(s) are nothing more than my curious mind looking for answers.

I will do my best.

Your response above is slightly misleading. They may not do well on carrion, but they DO eat it when they have it available.

Feeding Habits - Soldier fly larvae are scavengers and thrive on many kinds of decaying organic matter, including carrion, manure, plant refuse and the waste products of beehives. Adults commonly frequent flowers of the daisy and carrot families. From: North Carolina Integrated Pest Management

Habitat and Food Source(s): Larvae have chewing mouthparts. Adult flies are commonly trapped indoors and are found around windows as they try to find an exit. Outdoors, they occasionally "buzz" by, but are otherwise rarely encountered. Larvae feed on decomposing organic matter, mold and algae. Hermetia illucens (Linnaeus) is commonly encountered indoors in bathrooms, kitchens, outdoor latrines and earthworm beds. Larvae have also been extracted from carrion, and there are reports that the larva has been accidentally swallowed with contaminated food, causing myiasis (infestation within the body). From: Texas A&M Entomology Department


I was referencing the Texas A&M Entomology. I have it linked above following that quote.

Some scientists had created genetically modified fruitflies (The Wingless Fruitfly). I was wondering if you had done something similar.

This is where we have different opinions. I keep and breed Leopard Geckos and have done so for roughly 8 years. I do believe that you fed them for 6 months and they are healthy. The reason I believe this is because 6 months is not long enough for testing purposes.

I will give an example. Waxworms have a higher fat content than most feeders and nutritionally are not as solid as crickets. We don't feed these insects on a regular basis because they are fatty. If I were take a Leopard Gecko and feed him an exclusive diet of waxworms for 6 months, what results do you think I might have? I can assure you that I would have a healthy Leopard Gecko. The gecko would be plump, long, and doing great if the husbandry was accurate. If I continued to feed this insect exclusively though, with their low nutritional state and high fat content, we all know that at one point or another it would catch up with the Leopard Gecko and there would be problems. 6 months doesn't mean its safe, it means it is safe for the first 6 months with no visable side effects. Thats why I had said that 6 months was not long enough.


I had never heard of Phoenix Worms (good or bad) until this thread was started. I have asked around to some other people if they had any info on these insects and many had not heard of them. Did you just recently start going public with them? I have read some of your studies on how efficient these insects are at turning feces into a thing of the past.

Haven't read that yet. (If it's available to read anywhere.)

Can I see these reports.

This is what I asked:

Kidney and Liver damage are often the result of poor husbandry,diet,etc. over an extended period of time. The only way you would know for certain if these insects had the potential to cause these types of problems is if you did an extensive research study on it. You said you tested for 6 months, so I knew these tests/studies didn't exist and thus aided why I believe 6 months is not a long enough trial.

They can't breed in a persons house? This could be some good info to know. Why can't they breed in a house?

Price seems reasonable.
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